people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!

[Aquarist007]

Well, the wastes are removed from the enviroment which is what happen in our cities, not in our fish tank. It is still there in the tank unless you do water change. Adding trace elements to the tank when you cannot effectivey measure the level is not the way to keep a healty reef tank, IMO.
If we can reliably measure all the levels of various chemicals in our tank, then I guess that the level of most trace element will increases, a few will decreases. IMO, the only way we can restore this to balance is by water change because we are not sure which is which. We cannot incinerated them like cities in Holland. Carbon can remove some complex molecues but will not bind to and remove small molecues. Protein skimmer will remove larger molecues but not the small ones.

I expressed my points as well as I can. If you still don't see it, then we just have to agree to disagree. We have no idea what Copper (animals need them but only in tiny amount), Iron, Boron, Platinum, zinc.... go or does in our tank. We have no idea the level of these elements in our tank. Even Iodine, there is a lot of problem measure the active iodine level in our tank. You see what I mean.

This is an excellent post . It focuses on water changes for element replacement rather then for filtration methods such as nitrate removal
Since I've switched to daily 2gal water changes corals have never looked better.
It takes 20 sec to remove 2gal and replace plus dose 10 mL vodka.
How can you procrastinate on that

 

[Decadence]

IMO, glennf is right. You need to control the parameters of your tank in order for the corals to do well, especially with some anemones and sensitive SPS. Fish and soft coral are easy and can tolerate a wide range of condition and chemistry. Some (not all) of the SPS are harder. IMO, our test kits are not sensitive enough to check some of these levels so checking and maintaining them is a shot in the dark. Sometime you hit it, most of the time you missed. What chemical in the food and will build up in the aquarium is anybody's guess. While on can keep SPS living with minimal water change and just add additive, adding things will not remove chemical that will become toxic at some level. Adding without knowing accurately what needed is not recommended IMO.

In order to control nutrients, in tank that subscribe to no water change will need to severely control feeding and control the number of fish in the system. I feel that fish added a lot to the tank. I have a lot of fish and water change will keep my nutrient level down and remove, toxic minor elements and replace the essential elements. By nutrients control, I am not only talking about nitrate and phosphate only. These level are easily control without water change. There is a lot more to nutrients than just phosphate and nitrates. As everyone of us know, new tanks go though cycles of algae that have nothing to do with nitrates and phosphates. These micro nutrients/ or micro toxins are growth limiting for certainly corals and plants. Only water change will easily replace them. For me, it is cheap and easy. I do water changes and my tank is much more healthy for it.

And that is my closing argument

My system of roughly 150 gallons (spread across one 90, one 12 and one 40) has more fish in it (and large fish at that) than most people would keep in a system twice the size"¦ and I feed very heavy. You can keep any biolaod with enough natural and mechanical filtration.

 

[JMorris271]

This is an excellent post . It focuses on water changes for element replacement rather then for filtration methods such as nitrate removal
Since I've switched to daily 2gal water changes corals have never looked better.
It takes 20 sec to remove 2gal and replace plus dose 10 mL vodka.
How can you procrastinate on that

Yep. That's pretty easy to manage. Especially if you do it at Bev time.
I love your gardens in Hamilton BTW.

 

[Aquarist007]

My system of roughly 150 gallons (spread across one 90, one 12 and one 40) has more fish in it (and large fish at that) than most people would keep in a system twice the size"¦ and I feed very heavy. You can keep any biolaod with enough natural and mechanical filtration.

Great looking tank
What is your natural and biological filtration?

 

[Decadence]

Great looking tank
What is your natural and biological filtration?

Thanks. Lots of live rock, lots of chaeto (with a ton of light and flow for ideal growth) and carbon dosing for biological filtration. For mechanical filtration, I run five vortechs n the display, three of which are down low. They keep detritus suspended enough so that almost all of the detritus hits the overflow. All of the overflow water goes through the skimmer before coming back to the display and the rest of the tanks.

These are the other two tanks attached to this system:

The second tank has much lower flow through it and we let some detritus accumulate for the LPS in it. All of the livestock from all of the tanks will soon be in our new 300dd and the tank in the sump will become a cryptic zone for more biological filtration.

 

[Aquarist007]

Do you not add any additives like phyto and zooplankton. I realize these have nothing to do with water changes

 

[OrionN]

I keep doing my water change

 

[OrionN]

 

[Aquarist007]

Now that's the one that seems to be my Achilles' tendon. I've tried three times with this beautiful angel without success.. Darn

 

[Decadence]

Do you not add any additives like phyto and zooplankton. I realize these have nothing to do with water changes

I don't but I would like to try it out. Right now the only things beyond the ordinary that I dose are potassium, iron, iodine and lanthanum chloride. I may soon switch lanthanum chloride to potassium nitrate.

That is a lovely fish. Your methods are most certainly working very well for you. I may soon start doing daily 1% water changes. The only reason that I don't frequently do large water changes now is because they are cumbersome with my system. I can syphon detritus without doing any water changes by syphoning in to filter socks and that is usually the only regular nutrient-related maintenance that I do besides for emptying my skimmer cup and pruning macro.

 

[slavetonet]

I don't but I would like to try it out. Right now the only things beyond the ordinary that I dose are potassium, iron, iodine and lanthanum chloride. I may soon switch lanthanum chloride to potassium nitrate.



That is a lovely fish. Your methods are most certainly working very well for you. I may soon start doing daily 1% water changes. The only reason that I don't frequently do large water changes now is because they are cumbersome with my system. I can syphon detritus without doing any water changes by syphoning in to filter socks and that is usually the only regular nutrient-related maintenance that I do besides for emptying my skimmer cup and pruning macro.

Can lanthamum chloride be added to the auto water top off - in the RO water?
Say 20ml of Lanthamum chloride in a 25 litres drum.
As the water evaporate, the ATO dumps the RO water with diluted Lanthamum chloride. Is that OK to do?

 

[Aquarist007]

Can lanthamum chloride be added to the auto water top off - in the RO water?
Say 20ml of Lanthamum chloride in a 25 litres drum.
As the water evaporate, the ATO dumps the RO water with diluted Lanthamum chloride. Is that OK to do?

Welcome to Reef Central
I think your question can be answered on this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839

 

[slavetonet]

Welcome to Reef Central
I think your question can be answered on this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839

Thank you for the warm welcome. :thumbsup:
I will check out the thread you have posted.

 

[Radix]

Fish only 29 gallon, 25-40lb rock.
koralia nano powerhead, HOB filter, and LED light
pair of clowns and a damsel

Haven't done a water change in over a year and have no signs of problems

 

[OrionN]

Fish only 29 gallon, 25-40lb rock.
koralia nano powerhead, HOB filter, and LED light
pair of clowns and a damsel

Haven't done a water change in over a year and have no signs of problems

Those fishes are bullet proof and are hard to kill. The questions is are they breeding. If they are not, then you are not keeping them in optimal shape.

 

[tmz]

Can lanthamum chloride be added to the auto water top off - in the RO water?
Say 20ml of Lanthamum chloride in a 25 litres drum.
As the water evaporate, the ATO dumps the RO water with diluted Lanthanum chloride. Is that OK to do?

Welcome

Lanthanum needs to be dosed slowly to expose it to and adequate supply of PO4 vs carbonate and to minimize the amount of free lanthanum that enters the tank. It also requires careful prefiltering with small micron media to remove the precipitated calcium phosphate and/ or calcium carbonate before it enters the tank . The precipitant can clog gills and other respiratory organs killing animals It may also drop PO4 precipitously which can be an issue for corals and calms,etc. Study it carefully before deciding to use it and how to use it. FWIW, I personally, don't use it anymore except for rock curing in some cases.

 

[tmz]

I think so, that is why I don't quarantine, don't sterilize anything and add mud and NSW right from the sea. I feel that our animals came from and evolved in these conditions and have become acclimated to it and if we change these things by eliminating bacteria and parasites, our fish and corals will eventually lose their natural immunity and be very susceptible to these things, sort of like the boy in the bubble.

Each his own I suppose . If that thinking was applied to the human experience I don't think we would have develop immunity to the balck plague, tuburculosis, polio, staff infections, lyme disease, chicken pox, small pox,ruebella and so on. We would,however, probably breed a lot to ensure survival of a species with a limited life expectancy.

Quarantine and reasonable preventative steps are an effective ways to keep some serious marine life plagues out of an aquarium,IME.

 

[tmz]

Before we all get lost in the jargon about taking control and impediments to progress and the human condition ; let's recap a bit.
IMO:

Small frequent water changes

Small water changes with a reliable salt mix add major, minor and trace elements /impurities in a way that sustains many successful aquariums for long periods of time.

Small frequent water changes also export imbalanced elements and help to maintain element ratios . They are not an effective means to correct a nutrient issue directly.

The import and export are slow and steady providing consistency to the system with small water changes .

Large infrequent water changes:

Can shock a system and do not afford consistency but may be effective in a quick reduction of toxins or a quick reduction in nutrients. They offer inconsistency,however.

No water changes / no minor and trace supplementation

Can systems run without them and without balancing elements in some other fashion?

Seems some can for a significant time at least from some anecdotal reports . Again though stability can become an issue ,IMO, in view of biological reactions , degradation , feeding etc.

No water changes with minor and trace supplementation

Is there a system that gives more control over the unknowns about any salt mix and covers the export function and element balance and import of water changes ?

No,not that I have seen anyway after carefully studying it.

Some rely on dosing only what can be measured and ignore element ratios generally.

There is no export in any of them of elements(lie copper for example) not exportable by skimming, gac or other removers.

Some , adopt a position of if it can't be easily measured it it must be unimportant. This iss evne so if one assumes the accuracy of hobby grade testing for many things which is a poor assumption in many cases.

Some rely on a calcium reactor for some degree of trace element supplementation from impurities in calcium reactor media which requires trust in the media manufacturer equal to that one would place in a salt mix maker. A calium reactor does not account for all the elements either.

 

[mandingCa]

Presumably, people selling a lot of frags probably do water changes whether they intend to or not every time they ship out a frag.

Great point. He has to add a few gallons per month, but in a 600+ gallon system the wc amount is very minor.

I was browsing through a book by Alf Jacob Nilsen and Svein A. Fossa(Reef Secrets), and they recommend about 10% per year of water to be changed...

 

[Aquarist007]

Before we all get lost in the jargon about taking control and impediments to progress and the human condition ; let's recap a bit.
IMO:

Small frequent water changes

Small water changes with a reliable salt mix add major, minor and trace elements /impurities in a way that sustains many successful aquariums for long periods of time.

Small frequent water changes also export imbalanced elements and help to maintain element ratios . They are not an effective means to correct a nutrient issue directly.

The import and export are slow and steady providing consistency to the system with small water changes .

Large infrequent water changes:

Can shock a system and do not afford consistency but may be effective in a quick reduction of toxins or a quick reduction in nutrients. They offer inconsistency,however.

No water changes / no minor and trace supplementation

Can systems run without them and without balancing elements in some other fashion?

Seems some can for a significant time at least from some anecdotal reports . Again though stability can become an issue ,IMO, in view of biological reactions , degradation , feeding etc.

No water changes with minor and trace supplementation

Is there a system that gives more control over the unknowns about any salt mix and covers the export function and element balance and import of water changes ?

No,not that I have seen anyway after carefully studying it.

Some rely on dosing only what can be measured and ignore element ratios generally.

There is no export in any of them of elements(lie copper for example) not exportable by skimming, gac or other removers.

Some , adopt a position of if it can't be easily measured it it must be unimportant. This iss evne so if one assumes the accuracy of hobby grade testing for many things which is a poor assumption in many cases.

Some rely on a calcium reactor for some degree of trace element supplementation from impurities in calcium reactor media which requires trust in the media manufacturer equal to that one would place in a salt mix maker. A calium reactor does not account for all the elements either.

Excellent summary/recap Tom. Thanks for taking the time to do it for us

"No water changes / no minor and trace supplementation

Can systems run without them and without balancing elements in some other fashion?

Seems some can for a significant time at least from some anecdotal reports . Again though stability can become an issue ,IMO, in view of biological reactions , degradation , feeding etc."

I have trouble with "a significant time" IMO that assumes there is a time limit?
The focus of this thread has been on the successful... I guess we need a few unsuccessful with this approach to post also.