pico reef pest algae problem challenge

[nano_reefer2010]

Wish I could get a rabbit fish, but this tank is only an 18 gallon ADA. Anyways I apologize for the bad pictures, all I have is my phone right now. After about 18 hours it looks like this:
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/keifercooley/?action=view&current=30956060.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/keifercooley/30956060.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>
Note how much it has thinned out, and several strands are completely transparent (you can't see them in the picture of course).

Does anyone have an ID on this? I assumed it was Bryopsis based on its feathery shape, but upon looking further it is definitely a macro. It's highly invasive. Oddly enough, Tech"¢M did work to control it very well during the month long trial. Is this only effective for Bryopsis?

 

[Mr. SYG]

finished day three of peroxide dip
( third day since i did the dip, not dipping everyday)
looks a little white still holding strong

 

[Mr. SYG]

looks more like caulerpa than bryopsis

 

[brandon429]

Nano reefer 2010 those are sick pictures~

I noticed the dark stolons of the macro/caulerpa species
in your before pic there was a green stolon stretching across the rocks, the updates appear black completely

stuff is pretty tough looking

in 2005 you would see peoples tanks wiped out by that kind of thing, now we know unnecessarily.
Mr Syg glad you did just a single dip, that is going to be a heck of a test for the thicket > great pic documentation

its my opinion that tech m controls more than just bryopsis. judging only off the volume of web threads many reports of cyano control have been reported as well. I like this method of algae prevention because its not lethal to a subset of organisms like peroxide can be if added to the whole tank like a magnesium booster. most tanks with strong water changes and water circulation and spot removal will never have these problems, but its nice to know how to correct tanks that aren't performing up to the keepers standards.




Wanted to note in the thread that we should keep a collective eye out for adaptive organisms who may demonstrate peroxide tolerance development over time. Free radical assault/oxidative causticity is the mode of action for peroxide treatment of any amount, a much harsher kill on the target than medication/antibiotic controls and I suspect adaptations will take longer to occur if at all. its good science in general to watch for adaptations that require stronger and stronger peroxide dilutions to maintain imo

I have not seen this in any macro growth treated so far, but there has been times where green haze built up on the inside of my glass from being lazy and 3% wouldn't burn it clean anymore (when the reefbowl is drained I take a papertowel and wipe down the inside with peroxide to clean the glass with zero scraping) I had to move up to diluted food grade to get a ratio that could still burn clean glass I had neglected. <--thats where adaptivity hinted at me

Coralline is not removed by peroxide, its just bleached. but if you wipe down clean areas of the inside once a week during cleaning (not practical for large tank keepers only pico/nano keepers who drain) no coralline forms.

Regular paper towel wiping of the inside prevents any coralline adhesion so as a preventative peroxide wiping could be -pivotal- in small acrylic tanks you don't want laden with scrape marks after two years or better.

 

[nano_reefer2010]

I believe the algae i have is Caulerpa verticillata. Looks just like it

 

[brad65ford]

that didn't happen with the spot treatment it should be said...other methods of application have tighter control. whole tank dosing is risky and tends to vary in consistency among experimenters.
Additionally, bryopsis that was allowed to proliferate is never expected to go away with one treatment. It takes total control over future substrate import and certainty that the total biomass was wiped out in the first run. peroxide is not a one off usage, I don't know of any method that is. GFO has to be replenished etc

Agree, I'm going to spot treat, so how long do I leave it stay out of the air with 100 percent peroxide on it?

 

[reefscape15]

Brandon, this is such an excellent thread!!! Subscribing NOW!!!!!!!

I just got back into the hobby after a few year break. I have a 5g with only a small power filter for now, and the carbon pad that came with it. Lighting is a Zoo Med 50/50 PC bulb, 15watts??? I'm planning to add a blue and a white LED strip of some sort for additional lighting. I also have a 2.5g HOB refugium that I'm going to be using in place of the power filter. The tank has been set up for just over a month, and has started the diatom cycle which is covering some of the sandbed, rocks and glass. I have a pair of False Percs which are both just an inch long, 2 Red Leg Hermits, 1 Blue Leg hermit, and 2 Nassarius Snails. The only other living things are a few Mushrooms, which are doing supprisingly well with such little light provided.

I am definitely going to be using this method as algae removal. One of the Mushroom rocks that I purchased has a pretty thick coating of GHA. It's nothing that is an issue now, but I'm going to be treating it pretty soon anyways just to hinder any outbreaks. I'm very interested on how the use of peroxide will affect the algaes in a refugium. I'm hoping that proper steps to rinse the treated areas will prevent any traces getting back into the tank and disturbing the groth in the refugium.

As I've said before, this is a very young system, so there is no rush for me to start treating things right away. I will be providing pics when any treatments are done. Thanks again for such an awesome and informative thread!

 

[brandon429]

its been great seeing all the awesome pics, a challenge thread is only as good as its proof>

Reefscape 15 nice to meet you~

you can use peroxide as a spot treatment externally anytime you want for a quick cheat

this kind of growth you describe isn't anchored by holdfasts onto the rock like GHA and simple removal using the end of a siphon hose or rinsing off the growth outside of the tank is also an easy way. It will need to be repeated a few times but is effective (if I dont occasionally insert non peroxide options people can tell how slanted towards its use I really am lol)

I never bought into the notion that you have to allow any ugly growth to occur in a tank as part of its beginning phases. To me it sounds like endorsed neglect...a hands off method doesn't ensure tank success, it ensures you keep putting off the time your reef will look like a corvette.

there is nothing wrong with the older method of letting a tank go through diatom, then green hair algae phases (as every magazine article about cycling says) but what if another option was to look pristinely clean from day 1 to day 3000, and we are spending all this money on our tanks... and how many times does a guest to your home want to see a brown covered surface, those are the reasons I started taking pride in my tanks and refusing to let anything tell me how the aquascape would look. Every one of us knows the feeling of showing your tank to someone and then having to apologize about a certain area, or leave it unspoken and still hate the way the tank looks, taking action against an invader can take forms other than peroxide but in the end the tank free of algae is the winner any way you get there





Thank you for posting


Brad depending on what kind of life is on the rock I leave mine exposed to air for a couple mins, but if you have sensitive corals like seriatopora hystrix, or some live rock sponge growth you want to preserve by limiting the emersion, I think even 20 seconds out of water/rinsed will still kill any target you place the peroxide on.

I treat my reefbowl in such harsh ways its hard for me to believe any large tank keeper could harm their tanks...somewhere in the early pages of the thread is a pic of my vase, sometimes I leave that rascal drained for 8 minutes while I work on it empty (cleaning insides, burning a target etc)

and all those corals don't mind, its really kind of crazy but the bowl is used to it. thats never recommended though, its just to show what kind of adaptation the systems can handle if you aren't stocking with those blue or orange rope sponges that hate to be exposed to air. (stocking with those is kinda 2003, who keeps those now anyway-there are some, but I don't see any pics on this forum with them hardly ever)

B

 

[Mr. SYG]

Brandon quick question,

The drain your tank spot treatment method. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Drain your tank only up to the spot needed to uncover algae.

Take a peroxide solution preferably diluted for safety and drop it on algae( just enough to saturate)

Refill tank with old water or new water. (Depending on if you want to use this time as a water change or just save water.)

Now if those are the correct methods how would I stop the peroxide from getting into the tank to preserve the shrimps and animals that are intolerant of the peroxide. When you fill the tank the peroxide that is on the rock or even peroxide you missed while spot treating is now in the tank.
Is there a way around this? Mop up peroxide on the rock with a paper towel or does that small amount not make a difference. Or take preventive measures and take out the shrimp into a qt and run carbon - which would be a less efficient way of doing things.

 

[brandon429]

when I drain and treat you are right there are trace amounts left in the bowl, but I don't have any of the sensitive animals listed so its just a play where Im allowing about ~2 drops of peroxide total to be put into one gallon, a safe dilution for my corals

additionally, the smaller the tank the easier a full water change is so there is usually follow up with a removal of the water with the 2 drops and replace back with clean water. smaller reef tanks are easier to control the whole water volume in that way...

for your tank the only guaranteed safe way is removal of the rock and external treat/rinse

Im sure there is a threshhold where the cleaner shrimp can be in a larger tank with a couple drops of peroxide but we dont know what that gallonage is yet

the only for sure safe way I can see for you is to qt the shrimp in another tank and treat, or remove these target rocks one by one and treat externally while shrimp stays in tank. at least that method allows one to siphon/clean up under each rock while you remove them. >this is not fun work to do I know, it just depends on how bad you hate the algae~

 

[Mr. SYG]

Day 4 since Peroxide dip

 

[nano_reefer2010]

Day 3. <a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/keifercooley/?action=view&current=b2f1f315.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd401/keifercooley/b2f1f315.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

This treatment is awesome. All that's left is a few root segments that I'm going to spot treat once more. It does kill Coralline, but that's a small trade off for how effective it is. Thanks for the thread Brandon

 

[brandon429]

And those two follow up pics from you guys are some of the best thanks for posting!

 

[Aquaticchaos]

This is cool tagging along.....

 

[nano_reefer2010]

So if anyone has a stubborn macro they wish to get rid of, I think peroxide will help you out too.

 

[WetShepherd]

Brandon advised I read this thread and try this method to handle an algae bloom was running rampant in my water column (original thread here). In return I agreed to track the process with notes and pics and include them in this thread when I started to see some results. Here they are:

What I tried before posting a request for help:
- reduced feeding
- increased water changes (daily)
- lights out for 3 days
- new bulbs
- daily cleaning of substrate
- various combinations of filter socks / floss media
- carbon/gfo/poly
- changes in fan placement

New things I tried thanks to the many helpful people here at RC including Brandon:
- started dosing H2O2 directly to the water column
- added a UV filter
- resumed dosing tropic marin biocal to bring mag up a bit


Feb. 1, 2012
- started 7ml H202
- 15% water change
other notes:
... yellow wrasse jumped and made it through the egg crate top - now living in QT tank until screen tops are complete (brs order otw) - assume this is related to water quality but may be coincidence
... watchman goby found in overflow section hiding behind pipes - not fun pulling him out - also related to algae bloom?

Feb. 2, 2012
Dosed 1/2 Biocal combo (related to suggestion to inc mag)
Added UV Sterilizer
Changed filter sox - clouding is MUCH worse

(sorry photo missing)


Feb. 3, 2012
Dosed 5ml H2O2 directly to algae on rock in calm tank (reduction recommended by Brandon)
Changed filters with return pump off
changed water in sump
Cleared glass and stirred up a bit of substrate / dust / algae

Feb. 4, 2012
30% water change (1/4 sump 3/4 DT)
filters changed to clean/bleached/rinsed heavy filters
changed rock layout to better suit fans on side
moved mp10s to sides - reversed direction of koralia nano to blow towards back again

Color of the water siphoned from the DT

Feb. 5, 2012
Changed filters and water from compartment (5g)
Lights back on regular schedule
Fed 1/4 cube mysis

Feb. 6, 2012
Pic taken prior to maintenance
The tank still has a ways to go, but obviously some of the measures are working. I'll continue with the same pattern and update if there is a relapse, otherwise I'm expecting a recovery. To date there have been no adverse effects (inc. xenia and cleaner shrimp) with the possible exception of a couple fish jumping.

Thanks to all who took the time to help - you saved both myself and my tank

 

[brandon429]

I am so pleased with your succession of pics!! Those full tank dosings are so delicate and are sometimes the only practical method large tanks can use. Your post is helpful as we now have some dilution settings to run even in tanks with known sensitives when spot treatments aren't practical due too size or layout

 

[KafudaFish]

my opinion/rationale>
Green hair algae (the generalized term) is universally distributed in aquatic and marine systems via ubiquitous airborne spores along with cyano red and green, and several other forms of undesirables like micro algae...constant bombardment into our tanks via the air.

they can and will repopulate based on variables in each tank unless the owner can find that elusive sweet spot where corals grow and algae/pest does not, long term. I personally have never found the spot, its something to strive for. I see it posted from time to time. first I need to see a 3+ year old tank or more to believe anyone has found any sweet spot, but provided thats in place Im really looking for what works long term and its 2% of tanks online who find such a long term sweet spot where they magically get no pest algae growth of any kind for years. Agu is that man it still frustrates me / sheer jealousy ->

98% have algae to deal with so your regrowth Simon is common, but you might agree its much controlled compared to the first run

That spot I treated and posted pics of in the first pages, there is one tiny strand of gha real low to the rock about an inch over that came back this week, in about a month it will be a pinhead sized patch like the one I burned, that's my regrowth, will have to apply 1 drop of peroxide again about Feb 20th. Im not worried at all, this is the common cycle, we didn't think peroxide would stop algae it was just known to instantly kill it so that I get to never test for phosphate again for the life of my tank.

phosphate targeting is not long established in reef circles it is a post 2004 webwide bandwagon (nitrate before that) and while helpful it does not cure pest invasion it merely selects against it. you can still follow water maintenance trends of maintaining incredibly low N and P and get invader X -> thats a letdown to me, so a major tenet in this thread is that water maintenance is indeed not the secret to an algae free tank and neither is a clean up crew. We followed methods that didn't repeatably work, there was a missing variable, and thats effective manual removal as the primary action.

water maintenance determines how often you prune and thats it. keep water within the ranges coral needs to grow, then don't worry about it, thats my way.

peroxide buys us time to keep tinkering with better starvation methods while still trying to keep the corals fed.
its mainly a reset button as we begin to see more and more that clean up crews have been overhyped to us for a long time.

notice no crabs are coming along helpfully pruning this stuff until you burn it first



bryopsis and other inclusive genera that look similar, macro algae like dictyota, neomeris etc along with red brush algae like gelidium and countless other rhodophyta members, members of the diatom families, are not airborne they are obligate hitchikers

even though you've treated peroxide in certain areas of bryopsis growth, there is no telling what mass lies deep in the rock or up inside niche areas that peroxide didn't get to so these popups are simply hiders revealing their places.

Of all the posts in this thread this is the one I keep coming back to and thinking about. I guess I have always thought along the lines of the "great arms" race and these algae are in the lead and that we are hoping to catch them in order to allow our corals the chance to succeed. It seems that our role is a reactive one most of the time but this method allows for both reactive and proactive approaches.

 

[Mr. SYG]

day 5 since peroxide dip

 

[brandon429]

Ok so I have to take a prediction hit we will be two more days lol dip again to rush outcomeheh