Ping pong ball inside a closed loop manifold for variable flow?

[TampaSnooker]

Not knocking the idea. Just bouncing around a couple ideas that were rolling around in my head.

sorry, had to....

 

[das75]

wouldn't worry to much about tube worms and vermetid snails as the ball moving past them should keep them knocked down, Noise might be an issue.

Be interesting to try and should be okay to get the ball out as see you have a union.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There is not even a REMOTE chance of this working.There is no "LOOP" nothing is being pumped in a loop and no water flows in a "loop". The manifold has one input and multiple outputs. The ball will be carried in the path of the strongest flow and settle at the point of equillibrium where the the flow from the two halves comes back together. There is no "loop" and no need for a phsyics discussion, let alone one of worms or other biofouling Let me be clear, this is not "worth a try", there is no mechanism to carry the ball around the manifold. The ball will ride in a somewhat fixed location. That location will simple depend on the number and size of outlets on the manifold.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

The only way I can see this working would be if there was some way to "influence" the position of the ball - i.e. electromagnets, or some other means. But, then you'd be way more complicated/expensive than using any of the proven methods for variable flow.

I don't have mine set up yet, but I'm already a big proponent of VFD closed loops. It's not THAT much more expensive than a traditional closed loop (might be cheaper, if you're stingy) and you get complete control over what's going on. Of course the catch is you have to devise some method to send the VFD a control signal, but that could be as simple as timed relays, or a simple microcontroller.

 

[spieg]

the only thing i can think of that might create the directional flow is installing something like a sweep tee at the beginning of the manifold where the angle might be too much for the water to equalize

Yep, thats basically a sanitary tee. Exactly what I had in mind. It "looks" like it would work, or maybe it would just result in less optimal equalization?

Just had a thought: I have to believe the sound of a ping pong ball racing around that manifold can make a pretty annoying racket, no?

Definitely a concern! I think the smaller the ball, the more likely it is to rattle around. If its bigger, it might just make more of a friction type sound. Who knows?

The physics of the whole thing aside, don't forget the biology. Tube worms and vermetid snails will probably grow inside the plumbing which would snag and/or puncture the ping pong ball. How about a marble or golf ball which would damage them and prevent their growth? Clunk, clunk, clunk... Then you would know it was working all the time!

The ping pong ball definitely wont work for me based on size, it wont fit in my 1.5" plumbing. Im thinking the 1" solid HDPE ball from usplastics.com might be the best option so far...

Good point. They may even block the tube enough (over time) to impede the progress of any ball type object.

Are tube worms still a concern in plumbing that is constantly flowing 3500gph+? I guess I had always figured the flow would prevent them from setting up shop. Im still new to this whole saltwater stuff.

There is not even a REMOTE chance of this working.There is no "LOOP" nothing is being pumped in a loop and no water flows in a "loop". The manifold has one input and multiple outputs. The ball will be carried in the path of the strongest flow and settle at the point of equillibrium where the the flow from the two halves comes back together. There is no "loop" and no need for a phsyics discussion, let alone one of worms or other biofouling Let me be clear, this is not "worth a try", there is no mechanism to carry the ball around the manifold. The ball will ride in a somewhat fixed location. That location will simple depend on the number and size of outlets on the manifold.

Thanks for chiming in Bean even if just to burst my intellectually challenged bubble! Id kind of feared thats how it would work out, with the ball probably settling near the leg of the input tee. I just didnt know if the rush of water into the manifold would encourage the ball to circulate or not.

The only way I can see this working would be if there was some way to "influence" the position of the ball - i.e. electromagnets, or some other means. But, then you'd be way more complicated/expensive than using any of the proven methods for variable flow.

I don't have mine set up yet, but I'm already a big proponent of VFD closed loops. It's not THAT much more expensive than a traditional closed loop (might be cheaper, if you're stingy) and you get complete control over what's going on. Of course the catch is you have to devise some method to send the VFD a control signal, but that could be as simple as timed relays, or a simple microcontroller.

I hear you and im definitely a fan of the work thats been done by the guys in the VFD closed loop thread. Im sure ill end up with something along those lines in the long run. I just wish id decided to go that route before I spent the money on a barracuda gold. No doubt I couldve saved some money AND had a better solution. Im just in a position where im about to redo my manifold (12 outlets just isnt enough, still too much velocity at wide open on the barracuda gold) and was figuring it might be a fun time to experiment.

 

[tedward27]

very interesting!... i think if it does work... you will hear the ball(s) racing around inside it, loud or not. .....would a closed loop system for the manifold assembly itself work.. (just for directional flow inside the thing).

 

[tedward27]

very interesting! If it does work I think you will hear the ball, loud or not. would seperate closed loop for the manifold assembly work. (just for directional flow)

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Let's be clear here. Water will never ever "circulate" continuously in a "manifold" style closed loop output, as pictured in these threads. It will never happen. It's physically impossible, unless you've got some additional motivation built into the system (i.e. a second pump plumbed into the manifold, etc.) Hence, if you were to put a ball into the system, it'll find the point of zero flow, and sit there. End of story!

I hate to burst the bubble, but, like Bean said, there is no real-world merit to this concept, so it's not really worth further discussion, unless it's to introduce additional ideas, i.e. pumps, magnets, actuated valves, etc.

 

[glazer]

Beanimal hit it right on the head.... there won't be any directional flow in it. It's a pressurized system. The ball is going to go to a point wherever the pressure equals out on each side of the plumbing loop.

You ever been to one of those water parks that has the mote around it and people take a ride around the park on inner tubes? There is your directional flow... you pump the water into the channel pointing downstream and you have the water direction established by force and venturi effect. Add some "booster" points along the way and you can make the water circle the part as fast as you want.

In the plumbing set ups you have.. it doesn't matter at what angle or at what point the water is entering into that loop. If you were to hook up a flow meter and/or pressure guage to every outlet you would see that the ones farthest away from the inlet point have the least flow. If you were to cut the water pressure back enough that it was just trickling out of each outlet... fine, your ping pong ball would probably start making the trip around the loop if there is enough angle on the input. Wouldn't achieve anything you are trying to do... you know like make waves/alternating currents.

Steve


EDIT!.... sorry, didn't mean to be redundant. I was typing as you were posting

 

[tahiriqbal]

Bean & DWZM, thanks for explaining the logic behind this idea not being successful which I would agree. Then again my mind says it may work, if we could find a way to balance the flow around the loop with the logic of velocity. Lets say we got 6 outlets on the top loop getting feed from good pump. Maybe, If we restrict the output flow on the first outlet @ 10% then adjust the next outlet @ 20% and next @ 30%etc......who knows....until we get the ball moving in circular momentum mode to complete the whole loop.
NOT SURE IT WILL WORK BUT WORTH A SHOT...

 

[spieg]

I think that, regardless of restrictions, the static pressure is still a problem. While there may be a very brief circulation at startup, as soon as the pressure in the manifold equalizes, circulation stops. The restrictions dont change that. Without adding another pump plumbed into the manifold solely for circulation as dwzm mentioned, or getting more creative, I think im conceding defeat at this point. But by all means, if someone can come up with a reasonably good enough idea, ill put it in practice when I change my manifold!

 

[TampaSnooker]

A good idea, spieg but I have to agree with the last several posts. I don't see how even adding a second pump forces the water's flow in a circle. But it was fun mulling over at work today...

 

[spieg]

A good idea, spieg but I have to agree with the last several posts. I don't see how even adding a second pump forces the water's flow in a circle. But it was fun mulling over at work today...

Yea I hear you, not all ideas can be good ones! Glad I could help pass the time at work for you!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Bean & DWZM, thanks for explaining the logic behind this idea not being successful which I would agree. Then again my mind says it may work,

And I would kindly say that you need a better understanding of fluids systems But hey, not all of us grasp all things when they are first presented and each of us has different areas of expertise or understanding.

if we could find a way to balance the flow around the loop with the logic of velocity. Lets say we got 6 outlets on the top loop getting feed from good pump. Maybe, If we restrict the output flow on the first outlet @ 10% then adjust the next outlet @ 20% and next @ 30%etc......

Doesn't matter, there is no circulation through the manifold, what goes in, goes out. There is no point at which the manifold can plumb into itself with more pressure than is in the manifold already, it defies the laws of physics that govern the flow of fluids.

who knows....until we get the ball moving in circular momentum mode to complete the whole loop.
NOT SURE IT WILL WORK BUT WORTH A SHOT...

Many of us know already. It is not worth a shot anymore than jumping from a 10 story building to test the postulate that knee joints and reflexes are fast enough to absorb the momentum without damage to the body. The basic physics dictate that it just isn't possible

 

[kcress]

I'm afraid I'm on the 'won't work' train too. There is going to be someplace on that loop that is a flow minimum that the ball will settle in due to the net various forces on it. Rather like a ball rolled into a U shaped structure. There is a bottom somewhere. If you have multiple inputs all it means is that there will be multiple null Points.