Planning my macro algae/ seagrass tank

Sorry, nawilson89, to hijack your thread, but this is a good discussion! We can move it to my thread if you like.

I'd call it a slight difference in philosophy, Subsea. I am grateful that you are bringing your scientific knowledge to this forum.

I realize what I'm doing is a bit experimental, and I may fail spectacularly, but I think it's a worthwhile experiment. I still have much to do and add, to get where I'm trying to go. My tank's been up for a little over a year now, and I've been thrilled with the results so far.

I do expect the cast of thousands in my tank to process everything I put in to it, with an occasional 10% water change. My sandbed has wall to wall detrivores. I do not vacuum it. I haven't for months. I see my sand bed as a home to countless beneficial organisms. I don't want to wreck their homes or vacuum them out. Would you expect that I have piles of detritus building up? I don't. By eliminating this chore, (and adding detrivores), I have encouraged this part of the food chain to do it for me.

I agree there is much complex chemistry and many mysterious processes going on in our tanks. I call it Mother Nature, and though I'm ignorant of most of what's going on, I'm betting that she is better at maintaining aquariums than we are.
 
Michael Hoaster said:
Sorry, nawilson89, to hijack your thread, but this is a good discussion! We can move it to my thread if you like.

I'd call it a slight difference in philosophy, Subsea. I am grateful that you are bringing your scientific knowledge to this forum.

I realize what I'm doing is a bit experimental, and I may fail spectacularly, but I think it's a worthwhile experiment. I still have much to do and add, to get where I'm trying to go. My tank's been up for a little over a year now, and I've been thrilled with the results so far.

I do expect the cast of thousands in my tank to process everything I put in to it, with an occasional 10% water change. My sandbed has wall to wall detrivores. I do not vacuum it. I haven't for months. I see my sand bed as a home to countless beneficial organisms. I don't want to wreck their homes or vacuum them out. Would you expect that I have piles of detritus building up? I don't. By eliminating this chore, (and adding detrivores), I have encouraged this part of the food chain to do it for me.

I agree there is much complex chemistry and many mysterious processes going on in our tanks. I call it Mother Nature, and though I'm ignorant of most of what's going on, I'm betting that she is better at maintaining aquariums than we are.
Click to expand...

This convo does not need to be moved. It's perfect where its.

I am at the crossroads of trying to understand my tank and this discussion hits both "science" and "mother nature". It's the perfect discussion that fits the theme of where I am at this juncture.

Please continue on!
 
Mother Nature is all about Science.

Michael, I truely agree with your natural reef keeping philosophy. While I agree that detrivors will maintain your sandbed, DOC is much more complex than sandbed detritus.

Your tank demonstrates the beauty of how different reef zones compliment each other, to the extent of being dependant on each other. However, as you have pointed out, I have different goals.
 
Thanks, nawilson89!

"While I agree that detrivors will maintain your sandbed, DOC is much more complex than sandbed detritus."-Subsea

I agree, but would you care elaborate?
 
Michael Hoaster said:
Thanks, nawilson89!

"While I agree that detrivors will maintain your sandbed, DOC is much more complex than sandbed detritus."-Subsea

I agree, but would you care elaborate?
Click to expand...


In the context of a marine aquariam, detritus is organic waste that includes uneaten food. If not consumed by detrivores, it contributes to nitrogen & phosphate in our tanks.

DOC
Information taken from "The Reef Aquarium" Volume 1 by Julian Sprung and Charles Delbeek on page 110
"In our marine aquariums, the list of DOC includes amino acids, proteins, phenols, creosol, terpenoids, fats, carbohydrates, hydrocarbons, plant hormones,
vitamins, carotenoids, and various organic acids such as fatty, acetic, lactic, glycolic, malice and citric.

https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/does-a-reef-tank-need-carbon/
 
Mini update. I purchased 3 peppermint shrimp for my tank yesterday. Started the acclimation. And spent a few hours acclimating them.

Added my shrimp to the tank.

Within an hour 1 was dead and being consumed by a nassarius snail.

By the morning... all three were dead.

The acclimation was slow, in a bucket. I would pour a bit of aquarium water from a bottle into the bucket wait about 10-15 min and add some more. I then netted them out and put them in the tank.

They explored a bit and all were found dead.

Crabs are fine and the pistol shrimp is still down there.

My initial thought was the pistol shrimp killed them, but if he/she did, they would have at least taken the body for food.

Carbon comes in on Friday and I will be checking parameters over the weekend. Something isn't right...
 
Over an extended period of time, the water chemistry in our tanks changes gradually. Invertebrae and fish spmetimes adjust to these changes. The different compounds that contribute to DOC require scientific labs to measure. Even though water may look great, that does not mean it is great.

Your peppermint shrimp may be "the canary in a coal mine".

I have gone 5 years without a partial water change on my 75G Jaubert plenum on top with 30G Eco-mud system refugium on bottom. I relied on top off using Middle Trinity Aquifier and activated carbon to keep my system a pristine reef on top.

After my tank crashed from flat worm infestation and treatment with Flatworm Exit, I have adapted to partial water changes to support aggressive vacuuming. After the FW are eradicated, I intend to adopt Paul B reef management of 50% water change every 6 months.
 
I was thinking along the same lines as Subsea. Something builds up over time and the inhabitants manage to adjust, while new additions can't, and die.

But your tank isn't very old. You do water changes. You have macros to soak up ammonia, nitrite, etc. Does anyone use any harsh cleaning solutions in the tank's vicinity?

Testing and using carbon (and a water change) are good first steps. Good luck!
 
Some macro have chemical warfare with fish and some macro have chemical warfare with corals. I recently saw a link to Advanced Aquaria scientific study that documented the process.

In volum 3 of Reef Aquaria, Julian Sprung goes into great detail on different elements contributed to DOC by macro algae.
 
So with 2.5 oz of carbon the tank cleared up over night. And when I say clear, I really mean clear. Like wow. So I'm trying to get my next step in getting everything back lush. It seems my sargassum and prolifera has thinned itself out alot.

I dosed on saturday and hope that it may help. I might throw a plant tab in to release nutrients over the week also.

A shrimp survived. So of the three carcasses I found, one must have been a molt. Makes me wonder if maybe another survived and hadn't come out yet.
 
Somehow I stopped receiving notifications of forums which makes me forget to update.

Let's see....

Massive die offs of prolifera killed dragons breath, but grape caulerpa keeps on ticking.

I pulled 99% of prolifera and plan to buy some new ones or maybe fern to start over. It took out all my seagrass too.

So now i have this flat area of used to be a seagrassy prolifera bed that I want to play with. So I ran ideas through my head, of first replenishing the bed with grape caulerpa or prolifera. Then i had a better idea. Put some plant plugs in the mud there, then top off the sand with reef rubble, then on top of that put a few fern or prolifera.

You're possibly wondering why the reef rubble then the macro algae. I want cut offs of macros that float around to find a place to settle and grow above the sandbed and I also want pods to continue to flourish beneath the macro. When i add pellets/frozen/live food to the tank and they settle to the bottom they will be able to fall through the cracks and give an area for pods to continue to procreate.

The powerhead on my tank stopped working a few days ago and I haven't removed it to clean the motor, the only thing that's been running is my HOB filter with carbon and I don't see any issues with it. Actually my porcelain crabs have come out more since then.

Speaking of crabs, my red mithrax had a monster growth spurt. Since December it's gone from the size of a dime to well bigger than a half dollar coin, plus its claws are HUGE. Scared me the first time I saw them. It's time for it to be removed, when i ever decide to add fish it may become a hazard to them.


Another reason for the reef rubble. I want to add two small goby to the tank and hopefully I can get them to breed. The reef rubble would be perfect of the fish fry. Safe from predators and extremely small pods to eat. Something like in the fresh water tanks, when breeding small schooling fish like tetra or barbs, breeders would put them in a tank with marbles covering the ground. The eggs fall beneath the marbles and the parents couldn't eat the eggs.

Edit: Going to try and keep up on this journal. Life has been pretty busy, my daughter is almost 1 and she's all over the place, plus my second child, my son will be born any minute now!
 
It's a wonder you have time to post at all, given your situation. I only vaguely remember the first year of my child's life. I was so sleepy! Hang in there for one more year…

I'm with you on the rubble. It's a great refuge for pods. Do you know which gobies you're going to try?
 
Michael Hoaster said:
It's a wonder you have time to post at all, given your situation. I only vaguely remember the first year of my child's life. I was so sleepy! Hang in there for one more year"¦

I'm with you on the rubble. It's a great refuge for pods. Do you know which gobies you're going to try?
Click to expand...

I'm hoping to go back to my favorites of Green Banded Goby. I've had them before and they bred. I was never able to raise fry though.

That or the indigenous goby to the gulf. Small tiger like Goby. They are a bit bigger than the greenbanded so I'm not sure how they would like the rubble. My past greenbanded where about 1inch and could fit anywhere. A nice pod population in the rubble and an area where pretty much only they could fit would be perfect for them.
 
Michael Hoaster said:
Ah, to live near the source!
Click to expand...

I know right. When i think about collecting I get all giddy and excited. I just can't go as much as I want to. I don't think, I can go for a for a few weeks at least either. I'm also going to look for ghost shrimp to see if I can get them breeding too. That's after I get my new bed of caulerpa growing.

I'm still debating on my fish. I was thinking of even starting to acclimate mollys to saltwater so that baby mollies could be a steady food source, but If I went with greenbanded goby that wouldn't really matter. Goby of that size could only eat NEWborn mollies as they are extremely small fish.

I then debated on doing a small species of hawkfish like a Falco Hawk of Carribean Redspooted. They would enjoy small fish snacks like molly babies and they're a fish I've never had and it would be a new experience for me.

I would also keep Basslet and Clownfish who would eat a small snack like that.

Ugh decisions decisions.

This is why I wanted to set up a second tank :3
 
I'm wondering if my "tide-pool" setup is working. All the flow I'm getting is from a HOB filter. Water is crystal clear though. Grape Caulerpa seems fine, especially after it's smothered what's left of the dragons breath causing it to propagate itself and spread across the tank.
 
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