Poison warning: serious stuff, venom, toxins. Hospital stuff. [pix of items]

[Sk8r]

Depends on the fish, its diet, according to some reports, and the individual's sensitivity. Guy I saw had most of his thumb inky black, dead, necrosis, from which flesh doesn't recover---from a rabbitfish. You can end up with a nasty scar, or in this guy's case, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't lose the thumb. I've seen fiddleback spiderbites necrose clear to the bone,. and the deep dimpled scars they leave aren't pretty,so 'no worse than a spider bite' is subject to a lot of conditions. I'd liken it more to snakebite...occasionally it's not a problem, but sometimes it's real serious. I've never heard of anybody dying from a tank encounter, but they certainly can be seriously toxic.

I recommend wearing the nitrile gloves in ALL work in the tank because of the chemical problem (no protection against fish spines, but do protect against bristleworms), and rubberband your wrist if you have a sore on your hand, which will keep your hand dry. I know we don't always follow that ideal, and we instinctively dive in, in a crisis, but *try* to use the gloves for everything.. If they're good enough for brain surgeons to wear, in terms of touch, they're good enough for us to work around corals.

 

[Bpb]

Spider bite is a much wider range of severity. Fiddleback aka brown recluse spiders are a nuisance in my area of the state. Everyone around here is very familiar with how dangerous their venom is. They're nothing to play around with. But a common red wasp sting or a honey bee sting is fairly mild unless you have an allergic reaction

 

[Duke4life]

Ended up picking up a pair of gloves that will go to my elbows earlier from Lowes.

 

[cmcoker]

Also almost every flea and tick medication for your furry pets is deadly to marine invertabrates.
Wash good!

+1
Those topicals, like Frontline Plus, are made to be water resistant, so wear gloves when applying the flea control to your pets

 

[hkgar]

Please take it seriously. As someone who spent 3 days in the hospital from Palytoxin, it is serious.

Here is a link to my story for those interested

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2499316

And, yes, I know I was stupid and didn't think it could happen..

 

[shred5]

Was was busting some bubble algae in the middle of some paly's and it messed me up for a while.. took me a while to figure it out.

I had a Gigantea anemone once that while it was in the store stung a girl and she ended up in the hospital and almost died.

 

[matt_97055]

I have been squirted in the face by a rose bubble tip before and it put me on the couch for about 10hrs. My eyes burned like nothing I have never felt before. I didn't know that they could do that. It was a very painful learning experience. I handle them completely different now.

 

[RGS2]

I have had an allergic reaction to brushing my arm against one of my maxi-mini carpet anemones during a water change. I did know I needed to be careful around them, but I didn't realize I would require an ER trip for wheezing,swelling, and pain. I had to move the rocks with the nems to a spot in the back of the tank so I will not be likely to make that mistake again. I can't bear to get rid of them because they are so beautiful.

I too have been "grabbed" by a maxi mini and had swelling, redness, etc. Fortunately didn't require ER.

In January, my tube anemone wrapped several tentacles around my pinky finger. Still today it is bruised/purple a little.

 

[tkeracer619]

I spent 20 or so hours in the ER from Palytoxin. Do not tread lightly here.

While some people have different sensitivities to some of the toxins in tanks know that palytoxin is not one of those. It is a neurotoxin and will kill you if exposed to enough of it through phyiscal contact, ingestion, or inhalation from steam transport.

Regardless of how you feel if you suspect you have been exposed to palytoxin go to the ER and insist they contact poison control. The longest time from exposure to death on the books is 18 hours from sudden heart failure. You NEED to be at the hospital. Even if they have no experience with it (they likely don't) poison control will.

My ER didn't have experience with it, there was an active line to poison control for 18 hours.

I'm not even going to touch your tank if it has palys.

 

[hkgar]

I spent 20 or so hours in the ER from Palytoxin. Do not tread lightly here.

While some people have different sensitivities to some of the toxins in tanks know that palytoxin is not one of those. It is a neurotoxin and will kill you if exposed to enough of it through phyiscal contact, ingestion, or inhalation from steam transport.

Regardless of how you feel if you suspect you have been exposed to palytoxin go to the ER and insist they contact poison control. The longest time from exposure to death on the books is 18 hours from sudden heart failure. You NEED to be at the hospital. Even if they have no experience with it (they likely don't) poison control will.

My ER didn't have experience with it, there was an active line to poison control for 18 hours.

I'm not even going to touch your tank if it has palys.

My experience with Palytoxin and the hospital stay was 60 hours. I remember telling the EMT what I believed I had. He goggled it, look at me and said "Holy s***, it says it is the second deadliest marine reef toxin". After the ER doctor got done talking with Poison Control, and asked. "oK, if this is going to kill me, how will I die?" Answer - organ failure, heart, kidney, liver. Next question, What can be done. Answer, nothing observe and treat what starts to go wrong. With me it was respiratory failure and steroid treatments which I will be taking for the rest of my life. Sure I am 70, and did have asthma before this happened , but it did do significant and irreparable damage to my lungs. The lung damage may have occurred because my method of contact was inhalation.


Zoas are dangerous things and they will never see the inside of my tank either.

 

[tkeracer619]

That is terrible Gary, I am sorry for the damage that happened. I too inhaled it with steam. I think if you make it past the initial time frame that was laid out to me the symptoms seem to be treatable with modern medicine, which IS the only thing they can do anyways, treat the symptoms. That said I know the process is not easy and the hospital stay can last a long time. I think Tommy was in the ER for 2 to 3 weeks .

We are lucky.

 

[JRR1285]

I always wear gloves in my tank now. I used to never have a reaction to anything. One day during the move to our new house I became short of breath and had what felt like flu symptoms towards the end of the move. We finished up and I ate what I could of dinner and went to bed. I felt like death for the better part of a day and a half. Figured it was just a quick bug/illness, basically no big deal.

It happened again a week or so later after moving some rocks around bare handed. Have not put my hands in the tank again without shoulder length gloves. Yeah they suck to wear and remove your dexterity but is it worth your health? At the very least I will wear nitrile gloves if I am doing something that required precision.

 

[Sk8r]

CDC Statement:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a4.htm?s_cid=mm6431a4_e

 

[Hitch08]

Can all zoa's cause this? Anything else?

 

[liverock]

Yes there is...

Yes there is...

Can all zoa's cause this? Anything else?

Yup...shellfish

Took the boat over to Grand Bahama last june....with the other 1/2....

she enjoyed the beach and sun/pool/food.

In the marina there was a 'conch shack'. Fried conch..raw conch...conch fritters....you name I conched out everyday. About day 7 I started to get a heat rash under my arms....ok...been fishing everyday...that happens.

Couple of days later...rash down both sides of my torso...next day rash all over...and small bubble like blisters ...and itching like I have never itched before.

Next day..face puffed up eyes almost closed looked like the Hulk.

Day later...could not take it anymore, went to the Local Bahamian doctor....he gave me some cream...great...

Two days later heading across the gulf stream and my body was on fire and the itching was beyond control. Got to the dock and hit a CVS for some desitin as it was not available on the island. Six hour ride home in the truck...on fire. Cream did nothing. Couple more days...getting worse...doctor time...I know what I had...but I have been eating shellfish and a lot of it all my life...shrimp/lobster/clams/scallops/CONCH.....

Turns out that in june/july in the Bahamas especially on grand cayman.. the conch build up a heavy dose of toxin...especially the big ones I was catching/eating....raw..

Doc said...you just turned from a surf and turf kind of guy to a turf guy.

Steroids...lots...injections...creams...slowly dissipated.

So a month ago I got the urge again, broke out some lobster tails and shrimp from the freezer...on the grill..

Next morning....puff the magic dragon again..pace all puffed up...eyes almost closed...

So...I have capitulated to the 62 year old body, gave all my shellfish in the freezer to the neighbor and from now on it is porterhouses...shellfish:furious:, unfortunately is out of my life and that stinks:headwally:

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

 

[Hitch08]

Wow! That's some really scary stuff.

 

[Sk8r]

There's a difference between an allergen, and a food sensitivity, and a toxin. All of them can kill you, but they operate a little different medically as I understand. Poor comfort for the person who gets hit by them.

Palytoxin is a true toxin, ie, a poison.

I kept palys for years with no issues, before this was generally known, but then again I was very careful not to crush or wound the specimens, which is generally where you get into trouble, through splashes into the eyes, etc. But most softies will exude 'discouraging' chemicals when annoyed by another coral or a nippy fish, and I would suspect that these in the case of palys are not nice.

Wear gloves and rubberband them to your wrist if you have sores or hangnails, wear a pair of low-power reading glasses or the like when working with the tank, especially while fragging, wash your hands, don't mouth-start a siphon with angry palys in the tank, run carbon, and don't leave tank discard water sitting about. I don't have the knowledge to say it will prevent all problems, but they are precautions to take.

MANY marine organisms have chemical defenses, including some fish, and you should not take a sting, even from a bristleworm, as something you can tolerate forever with impunity, no matter if you have no other allergies or sensitivities. The more often stung or affected, the more extreme an allergic or sensitivity reaction may become over time.

And a toxin is toxic (poisonous) the very first time it gets into your system. As I understand it (IANAD---or biologist) the question then is the size of the dose.

 

[liverock]

There's a difference between an allergen, and a food sensitivity, and a toxin. All of them can kill you, but they operate a little different medically as I understand. Poor comfort for the person who gets hit by them.

Palytoxin is a true toxin, ie, a poison.

I kept palys for years with no issues, before this was generally known, but then again I was very careful not to crush or wound the specimens, which is generally where you get into trouble, through splashes into the eyes, etc. But most softies will exude 'discouraging' chemicals when annoyed by another coral or a nippy fish, and I would suspect that these in the case of palys are not nice.

Wear gloves and rubberband them to your wrist if you have sores or hangnails, wear a pair of low-power reading glasses or the like when working with the tank, especially while fragging, wash your hands, don't mouth-start a siphon with angry palys in the tank, run carbon, and don't leave tank discard water sitting about. I don't have the knowledge to say it will prevent all problems, but they are precautions to take.

MANY marine organisms have chemical defenses, including some fish, and you should not take a sting, even from a bristleworm, as something you can tolerate forever with impunity, no matter if you have no other allergies or sensitivities. The more often stung or affected, the more extreme an allergic or sensitivity reaction may become over time.

And a toxin is toxic (poisonous) the very first time it gets into your system. As I understand it (IANAD---or biologist) the question then is the size of the dose.

So being I totally OD' on something here...they symptoms described do not match what I had

http://www.foodsmart.govt.nz/elibrary/types_toxic_shellfish.htm

any ideas?
a scientific name....lol...ate too much conch, dummy

 

[Swensos]

Maybe we could save up for a high performance liquid chromatographer to detect palytoxin and distinguish between zoanthids and palythoas... here's a study on some samples found in the aquarium trade, noting the difficulty in visual identification.

"During this investigation, we found that many of the zoanthids commonly sold in the home aquarium trade are non-toxic or weakly-toxic, but a highly toxic variety of Palythoa (possibly P. heliodiscus or P. toxica) is indeed available. It often occurs as a tank contaminant and can be unintentionally introduced with more desirable species or on live rock."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0018235.PDF

 

[Sk8r]

Palythoa heliodiscus: a photo of one of the more toxic types.
http://www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2676

I cannot find a useable photo of palythoa toxica, but it seems to be another of the large polyp palys, looking similar to heliodiscus. I suggest you carefully copy the Latin names (always the most accurate) and look them up: familiarize yourself with them. Most zoas are mild, and collectors probably don't like to mess with these toxic types any more often than we do---but they can get included in with others, especially when small.

Unfortunately many zoa reefers are young folk, and may not have the background yet to read the science articles, but this is an area of the hobby where good handling practices are required.

As stated above, many marine species have defenses, and repeated exposure can make them into a hobby-ending problem. Gloves and glasses are such an easy precaution.
A few marine organisms have serious toxin, and toxin can be a life-altering if not life-ending problem. It's like keeping various sorts of animals: know what you're handling, and take appropriate precautions.

I would (my own opinion) urge anybody who thinks they do have one of the seriously toxic types, which they have identified, to remove it, dispose of it in a safe way, as you would dispose of an unwanted box of poison, and please not to trade it on. Our hobby has many safe ones. Let's not proliferate this problem.