Pomacanthus gill spike

Gary Majchrzak

Gary Majchrzak

Team RC
IMG_7042.jpg


I just noticed it. I don't know how long the discolored area has been there. Perhaps it's an indicator of some deficiency or perhaps it's nothing but a stressed gill spike :confused:
This fish developed from a juvenile and it's coloration and health appears perfect so far to date.
 
Can you get a closer picture?! Jeez...

Is it symmetrical- ie- the same on the other side? From the pics, it almost looks like an attached foreign body. Perhaps a parasitic isopod. You would be able to tell better than me, could it be this, or just a blank spot on normal physiology?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12511709#post12511709 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
it's symmetrical- no Isopods or other attached foreign bodies :)
Click to expand...

To me symmetry is almosty never an issue. If the left afce appears as the right face, it is more than likely metabolically normal. And if it doesnt impair him, dont fix what aint broke.

Now I'll have to look at my emp when I get home.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12513088#post12513088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Percula9
By the way it is called a cheek spike not gill.
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Actually, it's called an opercular spine, but lets not split hairs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12513282#post12513282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Actually, it's called an opercular spine, but lets not split hairs.
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Thank you! For the life of me I could not think of the term opercular spine when I posted this thread.
 
Gill spike works for me... but I'm a typical idiot. I'm very curious about this, looks very suspicious to me.
 
It looks like a parasitic isopod. However, if it is the same on both side, then it is obviously not an isopod and is a normal marking. I don't recall any marking like this on any other angel.
 
I need a closer picture.:lolspin:

Are you IN the aquarium for that photo? Jeez.

Anyway, I looked at my emp, and there is no sighn of this condition.

With that microshot, you can see it is actually tissue erosion. What would be causing it is curious. As I mentioned before, in my experience with wildlife, symmetrical anomolies typically are not problematic. I know that is a gross generalization, but it is extraordinarily unlikely that a pathogen would coincidentally strike in identically symmetrical spot on both sides of the animals face. If I were to guess (and I am just spitballing), I would say that is a mechanical wear-ie- he is trying to get his head into a crevice to picks at something, and he doesnt quite fit. Just an idea.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12516552#post12516552 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I would say that is a mechanical wear-ie- he is trying to get his head into a crevice to picks at something, and he doesnt quite fit. Just an idea.
Click to expand...
exactly along the lines of what I was thinking.

This erosion is on the widest part of the fish's head. It would be the exact place you'd expect to see some wear and tear if it were sticking it's head into a narrow crevice.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12516694#post12516694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
exactly along the lines of what I was thinking.

This erosion is on the widest part of the fish's head. It would be the exact place you'd expect to see some wear and tear if it were sticking it's head into a narrow crevice.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
 
Folks,

Good picture - IMO this is HLLE, not the most common location to see this on a fish, but emperor angels do get that in that location more often than other fish do. The bilateral symmetry is the clincher. Now - as to the cause, that can't be determined with the information at hand. It is supremely unlikley that this erosion is caused by the angel poking its head into narrow crevices - what, there aren't any narrow crevices out on a reef? (grin) You never see HLLE on wild fish (with the exception of rostratum tangs).
You can run a search here for HLLE, but as I always warn folks, your going to wade through a lot of garbage and bad opinion to get to any real usuable advice. Three "causes" of HLLE can be dismissed - stray voltage, lack of HUFA's in the diet and disease. The remaining three contenders are: carbon dust, unknown irritants and vitamin defficiency. It also may be a multivariate issue.

JHemdal
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12517904#post12517904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Folks,

Good picture - IMO this is HLLE, not the most common location to see this on a fish, but emperor angels do get that in that location more often than other fish do. The bilateral symmetry is the clincher. Now - as to the cause, that can't be determined with the information at hand. It is supremely unlikley that this erosion is caused by the angel poking its head into narrow crevices - what, there aren't any narrow crevices out on a reef? (grin) You never see HLLE on wild fish (with the exception of rostratum tangs).
You can run a search here for HLLE, but as I always warn folks, your going to wade through a lot of garbage and bad opinion to get to any real usuable advice. Three "causes" of HLLE can be dismissed - stray voltage, lack of HUFA's in the diet and disease. The remaining three contenders are: carbon dust, unknown irritants and vitamin defficiency. It also may be a multivariate issue.

JHemdal
Click to expand...

I had considered this, but I have never seen HLLE start/remain at the ventral operculum. So, I figured that to be unlikely. But, perhaps you have seen this. I, too, agree there is a lot of "nonsense" involved in how HLLE comes about and its "reversal". However, I dont think you can absolutely narrow it down to three things only.

However, I must disagree with the conclusion that it is unlikely to be mechanical damage because fish in the wild don't exhibit the condition. Aquarium fish ALWAYS adapt to the captive conditions. A wild emperor angle might easily have free access to a smorgasboard of dietary items, whereas the aquarium angelfish may be "desperate" to get that sponge in that tiny crevice. It's almost comparing apples and oranges in my book. Captive primates can exhibit self mutilative behaviors, whereas you never see that in the wild.
 
I appreciate all of this input. Thanks for posting your thoughts, Jay.
My fish is (recently) growing too large for it's bolt hole. I've also observed this fish jamming it's head into rock crevices to pick at sponges and Amphiprion (Clownfish) eggs. This makes it difficult for me to eliminate mechanical erosion as a possibility.
Jay- if this is some specific type of HILLE unique to Pomacanthids have you ever seen it reversed?
 
Gary,

The lesion just doesn't show any signs of inflamation - so that's why I'm thinking HLLE over self-induced injury. There are of course some chronic self-induced lesions seen on fish - lower jaw bumps on Rhinopias and protruding eyes on fish that repeatedly bump them against the glass of a tank come to mind. In both of these cases, the repeat trauma causes inflamation (tissue swelling) and not tissue erosion with no petechia. There are also acute self-induced trauma - a fish ramming into a rock and dislocating its jaw for example, that doesn't apply because there would be some indication of blood.
I've just never seen chronic self-induced lesions that look like that but I HAVE seen HLLE that looks like that on emperor angels, thus my conclusion.
Think about this - in most fish, the protruding points are the eyes and the lower jaw....if the substrate is contacted, it is usually at those two points. How would your angel repeatedly enter a crevice that would miss harming its eyes, yet abrade the skin off the preopercular area --- in a smooth, symmetrical fashion?

Jay
 
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