quarantine tank really necessary?

wooden_reefer · Oct 31, 2014

tmz said:
That is a ridiculous post. Riddled with misrepresentation, uniformed opinon ,unjustifiable arrogance,intolerance for opinions other than your own and a nasty attitude. I really wonder if you can read or just like making stuff up since you obviously haven't read what I actually said. I don't have time for any more supercillious blather .So I'm going to give the rest of your posts the attention they deserve ,ie, none. If you don't know what supercillious blather means just read the first letter of each word in reverse.

Please, I already stated that TTM is has its virtues and can be used on some occasions. In fact, if drug free eradication is necessary, then it is a good method.

Am I not well reasoned?

TTM has been around for close to if not more than 40 years. Why should it be popular suddenly? It is always a lot of work and it interferes with adaptation for many fish.

Many be there is a misconnect about the type of fish one is interested in. Many of the fish I like are not eager feeders and are vulnerable to external bacterial infection. May be you are intertested in others.

As I have pointed out before, the issue of ammonia should not be a factor without the use of Prime or Amquel. One can cycle a batch of medium and use a portion at each transfer.

Do you know all drug interactions with Prime or Amquel? Do you know their effects on most common antibiotics and other drugs? Why is it not a good idea to be free from such concerns?

Many butterflies are slow to adapt and disturbance for 12-14 more days right after capture and transport could lead to the end.

There are internal fungus, bacteria, parasites lurking and in balance with the fish. Poor nutrition would kill with greater chance than carefully adminstrated drugs.

Last, does skill developed in TTM help one combat ich infestation in a reef DT? How?

There are posts about failure of TTM that could be due to poor skills, but nonetheless happens. Skills developed in TTM does not lead to remedial actions. One cannot simply repeat. Once ich in DT happens, a separate set of skills are required.

tmz · Oct 31, 2014

For general information, I researched Prime and Amqauel about 4 years ago. These old post summarize Seachems response regarding it's incomaptablility with Cupramine, a popular copper medication and other chelated copper meds. How those products relate to other meds isn't known since the manufacturer doesn't reveal what's in them.

Seems like Amquell works like Prime and Seachem cautions on it's Faq page for cupramine that it's product Prime will convert Cu2+ to 10x more toxic Cu when "overdosed" with cupramine.

Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?

A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as PrimeÂ® then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

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tmz · Oct 31, 2014

Sorry about all the boxes ,I'm not able to edit them out.

wooden_reefer · Oct 31, 2014

tmz said:
Sorry about all the boxes ,I'm not able to edit them out.

A list of all drugs interaction with Prime and Amquel will be helpful.

Let's be logical.

TTM has a role in eradication of ich

TTM does not use drug.

TTM is more phyiscal work

TTM is not tolerant of failure. If ich did break out after TTM, a different set of skills to combat ich in DT is required.

TTM at once after transport is not suitable for fish that do not adapt quickly.

Intelligent choice is needed.

For me, TTM can only be an adjunct method when no drug is needed is the determinant.

For me, eradication of ich without TTM is certain for most fish I care to keep and I worry about other diseases more, and adaptation per se just as much.

Qt should last many weeks for reasons other than eradication of ich.

jamiesmithnc · Oct 31, 2014

Would a 5 gallon be too small to serve as a quarantine tank? (obviously, for smallish fish...)

wooden_reefer · Oct 31, 2014

jamiesmithnc said:
Would a 5 gallon be too small to serve as a quarantine tank? (obviously, for smallish fish...)

For fish that like to stay in small home range it is often OK.

Some fish cannot stand close confinement.

moneymm · Nov 1, 2014

I have had the fish since wed night and I have yet to see them eat. Also they are spending a ton of time in the bottom corner. Should I be concerned? Any tips I can do to get them to eat?

I have the first tank transfer schedule for Tom morning.

tmz · Nov 1, 2014

What are you feeding them? Some mysis or brine might encourage them. Are they breathjing well? Any scraping or twitching? Were they eating at the lfs? Do you have resting /hiding places in the tank (pvc )?

moneymm · Nov 1, 2014

tmz said:
What are you feeding them?

Pellets, I only had small pellets with garlic, I thought they were to big so then I got smaller ones with no garlic.

Some mysis or brine might encourage them.

I'm allergic to shrimp, can't have it in my tanks.

Are they breathjing well?

Most of the time yes, it seems like from 8 am to 1 pm they aren't acting like normal fish, but in late afternoon they swim around alil.

Any scraping or twitching?

Yes first night a bunch. And since lastnight they are huddled in corner twitching and scraping against the silicone build up in the tank.

Were they eating at the lfs?

I doubt it, I got them wed night, and they just received shipment that day.

Do you have resting /hiding places in the tank (pvc )?

Yes. Two pvc 45 degree pipes, they have never went near them.

moneymm · Nov 1, 2014

Here is them last night.

tmz · Nov 1, 2014

To iterate:

Tank transfer for acclimation and preventative treatemnt for ich follwed by qt in a cylced tank is my prerference. Many choose it after trying it and realizing it's not very hard and is effective.

It's not very hard to do vs the risks and measurements and dosing associated with copper or foramlin medications or drip acclimation or a lack of preventative treatment for the seemingly ubiquitous and deadly ich parasite in the trade.

There is no data on the interaction of Prime and Amquel with medications other than chelated copper meds like Cupramine where Prime it is known to be lethal. Since I can't know what those interactions are likely to be ,since I don't know what's in those products(proprietary information held by the manufacturer) ,to be safe , I avoid using them with any med in play.If I need a detoxifier I prefer more basic one without the frills but even then I avoid mixing it with meds.
For tank transfer tanks the 72 hour 100% water change significantly limits the risk of ammonia toxicity not only in the acclimation process but also from foods and wastes.

Ammonia forms from food and organic waste via chemical processes and bilogical processes primarily hydrolises as compounds break down . It takes some time for that to occur. I don't have or know of any data on how long it takes in a salt water tank for a chunk or shrimp of fish food to provide ammonia. I've never tested it. If someone has it would be good to know.
The timeline for human decompositon from forensic science goes between 2 to 3 days for it to become obvious in discoloration,and 5 or 6 days for the buildup of gases including ammonia to be observed in bloating.
IME, ammonia testing(salifert and API) in fed tanks with new water and no established biofilter almost always shows 0 after 72 hours but I do add a little ammonia detoxifier after 48 hours soemtimes just to be very safe. Since there are no meds in paly I'm comfortasble with this addition..

As long as fish of all types, (I keep over 50 of a wide variety and about hundred seahorse fry ) have suitable water and resting/hiding places and are moved via gentle capture to matched tanks they don't miss a beat .ime.

There is no reason to think a transfer with gentle capture every 3 days for a total of 4 transfers will stress a fish in any significant way, IME with many fish of many types. tgher is good reason tpo think extended drip acclimations will and/or osmotic shock will if sg jumps are invovled.

moneymm · Nov 1, 2014

So you think this may be ich?

How many days can they go without eating?

tmz · Nov 1, 2014

What are you feeding them?

Pellets, I only had small pellets with garlic, I thought they were to big so then I got smaller ones with no garlic.

I don;t have much luck with pellets. Some sort of meaty food ,minched clams or whatever your alergies tolerate might help. Someone else may have a suggestion on food.

Are they breathing well?

Most of the time yes, it seems like from 8 am to 1 pm they aren't acting like normal fish, but in late afternoon they swim around alil.

Any scraping or twitching?

Yes first night a bunch. And since lastnight they are huddled in corner twitching and scraping against the silicone build up in the tank.

I'd surmise based on the information provided they may have an infestation of ich, amyloodinium ,brooklynella or flukes.

If it's ich (crytocaryon irritans) the transfer will prevent a second infestation if they survive the inital one; many clowns do.
Broorklynella usually presents a slimy mucous coat ,

flukes are usually observable in the eyes,

velvet( amyloodinium ) will show as fine white spots and kills quickly.

Amphiprion (clown fish) do tend to huddle up in a corner or favored resting place for periods of time. The scraping could just be some nesting behavior. Hard to say.

Were they eating at the lfs?

I doubt it, I got them wed night, and they just received shipment that day.

For the future ,when I buy fish from a tanks at an lfs, I usually watch them eat before taking them home.

Do you have resting /hiding places in the tank (pvc )?

Yes. Two pvc 45 degree pipes, they have never went near them.

I'd continue the tank transfer process watch them closely for breathing and scraping/twitching . At some point if symptoms persist I'd consider a formalin bath(Hikari X ) and a folllow up hospital tank treatment with it or if it's just flukes prazi pro can help.
BTW,Those clowns appear to be adults and might be two females which may be a problem later as they will fight.

moneymm · Nov 1, 2014

tmz said:
BTW,Those clowns appear to be adults and might be two females which may be a problem later as they will fight.

the orange one is a nano, very tiny like less than 1 1/2"

the black and white still has some orange in it, so i think from the research i have done, its a juvenille. also he is much bigger than the orange one.

The orange one tried to eat just before, but the mini pellets appeared to big, so i just them in half, and he def ate a few peices!! after that actually swam around for 30 min or so, now he is back in his corner, and the b&w hasnt attempted to eat anything, today all day he is hoovering on top trying to eat the bubbles that the aerater is producing. but runs away from the pellets.

tmz · Nov 2, 2014

The one eating bubbles sounds like it's having trouble breathing. May be time for a formalin bath or a freshwater dip if you don't have any formalin to provide some partial relief from some of the parasites that may be in it's gills.Any other symptoms ? .

OK sizewise they sound like juveniles;couldn't tell from th picture.

moneymm · Nov 2, 2014

tmz said:
The one eating bubbles sounds like it's having trouble breathing. May be time for a formalin bath or a freshwater dip if you don't have any formalin to provide some partial relief from some of the parasites that may be in it's gills.Any other symptoms ? .

OK sizewise they sound like juveniles;couldn't tell from th picture.

i switched them into tank#2, b&w is still spending about 85% of the time at the top of the water. still dont think he has eaten.

i have prazi pro, can i try that? i am not really setup for a freshwater dip. i still am waiting on my ro/di filter, and only have a cold gallon of distilled water left. plus i think another transfer is gonna make him very unhappy.

im making a mess of my office with these air stone bubblers, they are splashing up and leaving salt water everywhere, can i use a circulator pump instead?

tmz · Nov 2, 2014

Yes , or put a piece of plexigalss on top over the section where they are bubbling up. Just leave some open space at the top of the tank a couple of inches or so for air circulation.

How are the fish doing now?

moneymm · Nov 2, 2014

tmz said:
How are the fish doing now?

i switched them into tank#2, b&w is still spending about 85% of the time at the top of the water. still dont think he has eaten. orange seems more life like today swimming around alot.

i have prazi pro, can i try that? i am not really setup for a freshwater dip. i still am waiting on my ro/di filter, and only have a cold gallon of distilled water left. plus i think another transfer is gonna make him very unhappy.

moneymm · Nov 2, 2014

tmz said:
How are the fish doing now?

here is a video where you can see him breathing and near the surface.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkngdd0ieus0tkv/IMG_9282.MOV?dl=0

Nina51 · Nov 2, 2014

it doesn't look like you have a lot of agitation at the surface. you might try putting a small air stone in the tank.

quarantine tank really necessary?

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