Question for using GFCI and grounding probe

I

insomniac2k2

Active member
I'm aware that using both is a good idea by reading up on other threads and having a general understanding of current. My question about using both is this:

I'm using one of these http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Manufac...=GFCI shock&qid=1461515382&ref_=sr_1_8&sr=8-8 temporarily until i get a few spare minutes to build a GFCI pigtail. I intend on adding one of these http://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-Vo...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

In order to get the full effect of GFCI and removal of mild stray voltage in my aquarium, must i plug my grounding probe back to my GFCI outlet? Or can i just plug in my grounding probe to ANY outlet with a ground?

So far, i believe that i could gain the benefit and protection of a grounding probe by going to any ground. I'm hoping that I can get some confirmation before implementation.
 
Bump. Presently i have my grounding probe in a different outlet. Stray voltage gone.

Why do i have stray voltage? Beats me. If i unplug everything individually, nothing is introducing more than a volt or 2 to the tank. Yet, when they run through my EB8, i end up with about 28v in the sump.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone had a better understanding on using both GFCI and grounding probe...
 
You can use any receptacle, but you must test your service ground or your service may try and use your tank as a grounding means through your grounding probe.
 
I'm subscribing because electrical confuses me, so I'll have my husband read this. Thank you for the topic!!
 
Esquare said:
Always the safest answer
Click to expand...

Sorry it is cheaper to call one, than buying a meter
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/earthground/

The only thing you can do as a home owner is to make sure you have a ground rod out at your service. I have found no ground rods to ground rods cut off and only being 3' long installed under home owners services. You can buy a plug tester, but that will only tell you if you have a ground, not how good it is. But something is better than nothing because I have seen homes have grounding receptacles installed, even though there was no grounding conductor present.
 
alton said:
Sorry it is cheaper to call one, than buying a meter
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/earthground/

The only thing you can do as a home owner is to make sure you have a ground rod out at your service. I have found no ground rods to ground rods cut off and only being 3' long installed under home owners services. You can buy a plug tester, but that will only tell you if you have a ground, not how good it is. But something is better than nothing because I have seen homes have grounding receptacles installed, even though there was no grounding conductor present.
Click to expand...

Thanks,
It's normally cheaper for me to call a professional first then after I tried to do it myself and messed it up.:p
 
One thing I left out and it is the most important is safety. Everyone assumes it is only 120 volts and only shocks but I know of two instances, both within a few miles of my home where someone was electrocuted. One was working on a leaking water line and became energized when he came in contact with the wire feeding the pump. The other person was moving things in his attic, and since he was dripping with sweat he found a nick in his romex and was unable to separate himself from it.
 
You would need to have a really bad grounding electrode setup in your home for your tank to become your "service grounding electrode". This is not the norm.

You want to make sure your incoming water pipe is bonded to the service grounding system (connected to your electrical panel service ground bar) You also should have an 8 foot ground rod(2 is the requirement in my area) outside the home. If you have these items, you should not have any ground issues (no need to test your grounding system).

That said, I find that pumps and/or cracked heaters are usually the reason for a stray voltage in your aquarium. Sometimes there is not much you can do to get around it. It could be a tiny leak in conductor insulation on one of the pumps you may never find it. a grounding electrode should help with the problem. It can be plugged into any outlet (GFI outlet wont make any difference).

I tend to avoid using GFI outlets for large pump loads. They will almost always have nuisance tripping problems. GFIs monitor the difference in current between the neutral and equipment ground. Motors have high inrush current and can also be unbalanced upon startup making it seem like there is a short between ground and neutral (due to current being present in the neutral). It doesn't really provide any extra layer of protection for motors anyway. Its not a bad idea to use them for anything else, lights, heaters, reef controllers, etc. very Small motors and powerheads should be fine as well.
 
It is not the norm, but it does happen. Also to use a water pipe as additional grounding means you must have at least 10' of metal pipe in the ground. Installations in my area use pvc. Also can you imagine getting into a spa tub, or swimming pool where the motors are not connected to gfci breakers and the motor casing is not bonded to the panel. But yet every day hobbist try to find ways around gfci protection. I am hoping that in 2020 aquariums will be added to the list of equipment requiring gfci in the NEC
 
alton said:
It is not the norm, but it does happen. Also to use a water pipe as additional grounding means you must have at least 10' of metal pipe in the ground. Installations in my area use pvc. Also can you imagine getting into a spa tub, or swimming pool where the motors are not connected to gfci breakers and the motor casing is not bonded to the panel. But yet every day hobbist try to find ways around gfci protection. I am hoping that in 2020 aquariums will be added to the list of equipment requiring gfci in the NEC
Click to expand...

PVC can not be used for Domestic water service. It has cancer causing chemicals that leach into the water from it. Glad I don't live in your area. I hope you didn't think I meant to ground a PVC pipe to your panel. That would just be silly now.

It will never happen. Its not a big enough danger as a pool. You are not going to lose your life from some stray current in your aquarium. A little shock is about it. who wants to deal with troubleshooting GFIs tripping every time you turn on your pump? Just not worth the trouble. I'm talking about big external pumps like iwakis and bluelines not little mag pumps.

Also I'm an electrical engineer with over 15 years in the business. I Know more than your "typical" hobbyist.
 
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You do realize stage 3 since 2014 washing machines, and dishwashers in homes have been on GFCI. We have not had any issues, rumor has it in 2017 your dryer may have to be on GFCI protection also. I am glad you don'y mind gambling with your life and family's, but our industry has added thing's like arc fault, ground fault, and tamper proof receptacles to protect the public in there homes. Just recently all drinking fountains now have GFCI protection. Once again no issues with nuisance trippings
 
alton said:
You do realize stage 3 since 2014 washing machines, and dishwashers in homes have been on GFCI. We have not had any issues, rumor has it in 2017 your dryer may have to be on GFCI protection also. I am glad you don'y mind gambling with your life and family's, but our industry has added thing's like arc fault, ground fault, and tamper proof receptacles to protect the public in there homes. Just recently all drinking fountains now have GFCI protection. Once again no issues with nuisance trippings
Click to expand...

I wouldn't know because Most ares I work in follow 2008 or 2011 NEC. Your house isn't going to burn down if you don't have a GFI breaker on your return pump give me a break. How long have people been using non GFI circuits for dishwashers and washing machines? Many many years. The code is just like everything else. They need to make some sort of change year to year to keep people in their jobs.
 
Choosing a safer path is the intelligent thing to do. Spreading ignorance is not. I realize that you may know what you are talking about, but for those that dont understand electronics, they may walk away with something a lot less informed because some internet electrical engineer said, "Dont worry about it". Please don't do that in this thread.

No matter what way you slice it. Having a GFCI on ALL aquarium power sources is better than not having it.

stage3-s4 said:
I wouldn't know because Most ares I work in follow 2008 or 2011 NEC. Your house isn't going to burn down if you don't have a GFI breaker on your return pump give me a break. How long have people been using non GFI circuits for dishwashers and washing machines? Many many years. The code is just like everything else. They need to make some sort of change year to year to keep people in their jobs.
Click to expand...
 
stage3-s4 said:
GFIs monitor the difference in current between the neutral and equipment ground.
Click to expand...

No.. a GFCI monitors between line and neutral..
Neutral is not the same as ground even though they are tied together at the panel board.
"Ground" should ONLY carry current in the event of a fault.. Thats it..

stage3-s4 said:
Motors have high inrush current and can also be unbalanced upon startup making it seem like there is a short between ground and neutral (due to current being present in the neutral)
Click to expand...

No motors can have high "leakage current" thats NOT inrush current. But yes you can have common mode voltage imbalances that can make their way to a grounded portion of the motor through the bearings. This is far more common with motors that utilize a VFD
 
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