Re: Nitra-Guard Bio-cubes from Orca Labs promises denitrification free of Redfield's

[Belgian Anthias]

PH issues

PH issues

Vinegar can cause pH issues (vodka to a lesser extent) - these cubes are much simpler to use!

All carbon based methods have PH issues. The reaction produces OH- which means that PH will go up. On the other hand alkalinity will go down which will not show in PH readings.

 

[mofro]

From the onset of a discussion on another form the product consists of marine yeast, not bacteria. This is what has caught my interest
Bertoni. Am I allowed to post the link to the information on the other site

Just to clarify, my understanding is that the product does not consist of yeast, it consists of a carbon polymer, but instead of being colnized by bacteria, the cubes are colonised by yeast and Archaea.....
Really happy to hear its getting out to the bigger consumer markets...

 

[bertoni]

I would expect most carbon dosing approaches to lower the pH, if they have an effect at all, due to the production of carbon dioxide from respiration. At what point do you think an OH^- ion is produced? Generally, nitrification consumed alkalinity, rather than releasing it.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Carbon dosing

Carbon dosing

I would expect most carbon dosing approaches to lower the pH, if they have an effect at all, due to the production of carbon dioxide from respiration. At what point do you think an OH^- ion is produced? Generally, nitrification consumed alkalinity, rather than releasing it.

When for example ethanol is added we have, to keep it simple:

NO3 + C2H5OH ===> N2 + 2OH + 2CO2 + H2O + (2H)

"Deniballs" use Polyhydroxybutrate as carbon source.


The yeast species Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a fungus, converts carbohydrates, glucose, to carbon dioxide and alcohols. For thousands of years the carbon dioxide has been used in baking and the alcohol in alcoholic beverages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast. Under anaerobe conditions Saccharomyces cerevisiae produces more alcohol, ethanol in this case. So the yeast does a part of the work of the bacteria and make it easier for the bacteria to grow. This is how I think the Nitra-Guard Bio-cubes from Orca Labs can accellerate de-nitrification. But what happens when all nitrate is consumed and the yeast keeps on producing alcohol. Will our fish become drunks?

 

[nemo's janitor]

So does that mean that vodka dosing was the alcohol content rather than the carbon content?????? I am refering to the feeding of the yeast or bacteria.

 

[bertoni]

When for example ethanol is added we have, to keep it simple:

NO3 + C2H5OH ===> N2 + 2OH + 2CO2 + H2O + (2H)

This equation doesn't make any sense. There is one nitrogen on the left, but two on the right. Also, 2 OH^- + 2H⁺ gives two water molecules. The oxygen doesn't add up, either.

The purpose of vodka dosing is to add organic carbon, to allow bacteria to consume the nitrate and phosphate in the the water column.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

alcohol

alcohol

So does that mean that vodka dosing was the alcohol content rather than the carbon content?????? I am refering to the feeding of the yeast or bacteria.

The alcohol is the carbon source.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

This equation doesn't make any sense. There is one nitrogen on the left, but two on the right. Also, 2 OH^- + 2H⁺ gives two water molecules. The oxygen doesn't add up, either.

The purpose of vodka dosing is to add organic carbon, to allow bacteria to consume the nitrate and phosphate in the the water column.

The reaction has place in an aquarium which contains water. In this case salt water.
As I wrote, I tried to keep it simple, it isn't. When adding vodka all heterotropic bacteria in the aquarium system will have a good time and multiply as long as they are fed enough. There are thousands different bacteria in the aquarium and one of them could be Pseudonomas, impossible to know. That is why I use sulfur in stead of a carbon source. Then I know what I am doing.
When using a carbon source the reaction and the result will depend on the carbon source used and the method applied.
Again, to keep it simple, when for example methanol is used , under certain anaerobe conditions we could have: 12 NO3- + 10 CH3OH + 12 H+ → 10 CO2 + 6 N2 + 26 H2O. In this case there is no OH- formed but H+ removed, which has the same effect on PH readings and a lot of CO2 is formed which will also effect PH if it reversibly converts to H2CO3 (carbonic acid).
When using a carbon source, nothing is certain, the result will always be unpredictable. That is my opinion.

 

[bertoni]

Okay, that equation makes sense. It shows the increase of alkalinity during denitrification, which is correct. I appear to have misread your post, and thought you were referring to the nitrification process. So I must have misread your post. On the other hand, the increase in carbon dioxide likely will lower the pH, and it is counter-balanced by the release of H<sup>+<sup> during nitrification.

 

[Aquarist007]

I understand the chemistry posted but am still puzzled how these apply to yeast cells and how they use nitrates and phosphates in cellular respiration. Unless they operate similar to faculative bacteria in an anaerobic environment and reduce nitrates for the oxygen
Yet if this is true then why are we having to add air to them

 

[carlosdeandrade]

The one thing that the bio cubes need is good oxygenation. So, although they do not need to tumble, they probably need to be aerated with an airstone.

You are correct, by using a bomb method. Placing cubes in mesh bag supplied, adding an airstone into the cube and bob's your uncle, the bomb method.

 

[mofro]

I understand the chemistry posted but am still puzzled how these apply to yeast cells and how they use nitrates and phosphates in cellular respiration. Unless they operate similar to faculative bacteria in an anaerobic environment and reduce nitrates for the oxygen
Yet if this is true then why are we having to add air to them

What comes to mind is the following:
When overdosing on a liquid carbon source such as vodka, we experience as massive bacterial bloom. This is followed by a massive drop in O2 as well as reduced N&P. All been assimilated and or used in the mass bactetial orgy. This does not happen in anaerobic areas, it happens throughout the tank, ie in aerobic conditions...

I am no biologist, but I suspect that similar processes are possible on these cubes, albeit with yeast. We have a supercharged biologically available C source, N and P passing by and to facilitate the orgy, we supply some O2, lots pf it.
At the same time, the air movement shears off biofilms for export.
Just my thoughts, but considering the high yeast count in some coastal waters..... Yeast, like most (all?) life utilise N for tissue and P for metabolic processes.
I currently studying some articles on the n and p uptake of yeast... Growth spurts, lag phases, etc.

Of course I could be wrong in my assumptions above, would love to get deeper into this stuff with some clever people..

 

[Aquarist007]

What comes to mind is the following:
When overdosing on a liquid carbon source such as vodka, we experience as massive bacterial bloom. This is followed by a massive drop in O2 as well as reduced N&P. All been assimilated and or used in the mass bactetial orgy. This does not happen in anaerobic areas, it happens throughout the tank, ie in aerobic conditions...

I am no biologist, but I suspect that similar processes are possible on these cubes, albeit with yeast. We have a supercharged biologically available C source, N and P passing by and to facilitate the orgy, we supply some O2, lots pf it.
At the same time, the air movement shears off biofilms for export.
Just my thoughts, but considering the high yeast count in some coastal waters..... Yeast, like most (all?) life utilise N for tissue and P for metabolic processes.
I currently studying some articles on the n and p uptake of yeast... Growth spurts, lag phases, etc.

Of course I could be wrong in my assumptions above, would love to get deeper into this stuff with some clever people..

Mofro, firstly I am sorry for the late welcome to reef central.
Secondly thank you for contributing to the post. It was my colleague who was instrumental in finding a market contact in Canada for the product. I started this thread with a post which my colleague received from the manufacturer himself.
I hope he will join us here as he has been most helpful to my colleague

What you are saying makes perfect sense. However as with the case with bacteria, if you supply them with an oxygen source they will use that rather
rather then nitrates and phosphates to get their oxygen for cellular metabolism. This is what I don't quite understand--the use of pumping oxygen into the bag of yeast and carbon media

 

[mofro]

Agreed, they will use the available O2, but they still need N and P. scavengeing it from NO3 and PO4? This of course turns the whole denitrification theiry on its head whereby O2 is scavenged from NO3, but we are dealing with assimilation and not bacterial denitrification from what i understand.

A closer look at the cubes after avfew weeks operation will show a black mass growing on it. Without the oxygenation, this eventually forms an almost solid mass clumping cubes together. This happened to me when i had too many in a reactor with too slow flow. Nitrate was still underectable though.

Thanks for the welcome, been on here for many years though, but hardly post..

 

[Aquarist007]

Agreed, they will use the available O2, but they still need N and P. scavengeing it from NO3 and PO4? This of course turns the whole denitrification theiry on its head whereby O2 is scavenged from NO3, but we are dealing with assimilation and not bacterial denitrification from what i understand.

A closer look at the cubes after avfew weeks operation will show a black mass growing on it. Without the oxygenation, this eventually forms an almost solid mass clumping cubes together. This happened to me when i had too many in a reactor with too slow flow. Nitrate was still underectable though.

Thanks for the welcome, been on here for many years though, but hardly post..

thanks--I can see that
I hope you post more often--your expertise is appreciated.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Agreed, they will use the available O2, but they still need N and P. scavengeing it from NO3 and PO4? This of course turns the whole denitrification theiry on its head whereby O2 is scavenged from NO3, but we are dealing with assimilation and not bacterial denitrification from what i understand.

A closer look at the cubes after avfew weeks operation will show a black mass growing on it. Without the oxygenation, this eventually forms an almost solid mass clumping cubes together. This happened to me when i had too many in a reactor with too slow flow. Nitrate was still underectable though.

.

I don't think these cubes are colonized by Yeast. Where should the yeast come from in a salt-water aquarium. If there is yeast involved it must be in the cubes. Probably there is also sugar involved and is this cube nothing else than a alcohol or ethanol factory functioning as a carbon source. In that case,what happens when the sugar is consumed?
We need bacteria who will oxidise NO3. What do we do when adding oxygen? I do not get it.

 

[bertoni]

We need bacteria who will oxidise NO3.

Do you mean bacteria that will reduce nitrate? Nitrate already is oxidized.

Microbes tend to have ways to spread. If there are appropriate marine yeasts, they could arrive on their own.

 

[Aquarist007]

I think that the yeast are consuming the nitrates and phosphates through digestion. Compared to bacteria that can consume nitrates both through digestion and cellular respiration in an anaerobic environment I would think yeast to be less effective
That said yeast is a very rapidly reproducing organism. To be honest I don't know how the reproduction rate compares to that of faculative bacteria

 

[coralsnaked]

What concerns me the most about utilizing yeast as the living colonizing biological organism is that it is well known that salt inhibits the growth of yeast cells. This is why I poopoo'd the original idea of the cube a few years back. And now the new improved cube w/ titaniium still does not explain the inhibiting factors of placing yeast in a highly salt saturated enviroment and expecting it to rapidly multiply. I would need some explanation of how they have overcome this physical barrier to beleive the original cube actually works, much less the improved version of the cube

Merry Skerry

PS: Let me make an addendem as a coworker just schooled me on marine yeast. Not only do they thrive in marine solutions but even in higher salt concentrations. He also directed me to some litersature he has on these marine yeasts, which suggest they need to grow on or in a marine substrate and that the cube enhanced w/ titanium may serve that purpose. Interesting makes me wonder. i will be researching more for further discussion.

 

[coralsnaked]

Ist addditional research shows it is a $90 investment per 25 US gals needing treatment. That means I would need to invest over $500 to treat my 150 gal SPS that has a need for nitrate reduction. Of course that is expected to last a yrear making it a $40+ a month treatment. Still pricey