Re: Nitra-Guard Bio-cubes from Orca Labs promises denitrification free of Redfield's

[mofro]

Ist addditional research shows it is a $90 investment per 25 US gals needing treatment. That means I would need to invest over $500 to treat my 150 gal SPS that has a need for nitrate reduction. Of course that is expected to last a yrear making it a $40+ a month treatment. Still pricey

Not sure where you get those figures from.... 150 gal is approximately 600 litres? At 3ml per litre (the max "dose") you should be looking at just over 1.5 litre. At around $80 per litre of cubes, you looking at less than $200. I use only 1 litre in a 600L system and i only changed out half after 1 year! Not because i needed to, but because i got some of the newer version which i just had to try..
My nitrates have been undetectable since i started using it and po4 was kept at well manageble levels.
Compare to the price of pellets and the fact that you dont need a reactor, these really are a cost effective solution.... Yeah sure, vodka probably cheaper, but i'd rather drink it...

 

[nemo's janitor]

Ist addditional research shows it is a $90 investment per 25 US gals needing treatment. That means I would need to invest over $500 to treat my 150 gal SPS that has a need for nitrate reduction. Of course that is expected to last a yrear making it a $40+ a month treatment. Still pricey

Are you sure...

In SA the Bio-cubes cost somewhere between R800.00 & R900.00 for a 1 litre tub. That will treat a 600 liter (150g approx) tank medium stocked. Heavily stocked you looking at 1.5 to 2 liters.

So my maths with the exchange rate of $1= R8.8 to R9 that is $81 max $162 if you have a big bio load. How did you get to $500 ?

 

[RegalAngel]

Are you sure...

In SA the Bio-cubes cost somewhere between R800.00 & R900.00 for a 1 litre tub. That will treat a 600 liter (150g approx) tank medium stocked. Heavily stocked you looking at 1.5 to 2 liters.

So my maths with the exchange rate of $1= R8.8 to R9 that is $81 max $162 if you have a big bio load. How did you get to $500 ?

Could they be higher priced here in the US due to shipping costs? Also, costs related to selling the product in the US, regulatory related; also wholesale/retail pricing differences?

 

[nemo's janitor]

Could they be higher priced here in the US due to shipping costs? Also, costs related to selling the product in the US, regulatory related; also wholesale/retail pricing differences?

I suppose.... Hmmm.... opportunity for a on line store, I see :dance:

Shipping should not cost more than $40 to $50 :lol2:

We will see what the US pricing is. No doubt it will be on a number of online stores soon.

 

[mofro]

Bear in mind that the prices me quoted above are retail prices here in SA. Doubt very much if the manufacturer is selling to USA at retail prices, so even with shipping you should come out just above the prices I mentioned.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Sulfur

Sulfur

Use Sulfur for de-nitration. It is safe and will cost you +- 5$/year.

 

[trueperc]

Just a thought as I just got this product today. I am curious since the recommend use is the bomb method and they do not need to be tumbled, then why not fill a skimmer with them. You would have the flow and the air that should go completely around all the cubes. When trying to explain the cubes to a friend and the bomb method he stated that if all you are using is just an air stone then how is all of the cubes going to get air contact.

 

[bertoni]

Filling the skimmer with them likely would prevent the skimmer from working properly.

 

[trueperc]

The skimmer would be more like a reactor than a skimmer, the output of the skimmer then would be directed toward the real skimmer. Using a skimmer as a reactor though you could more control the out put and with air stone in a bag the stuff you want to get rid of is really just in the water column. I have an old skimmer that has a bubble plate a skimz161 would be what I would be using.

 

[tmz]

There is some information out there on yeast in marine environments. Here are a few links and quotes to get you started on asessing whether it's doing anything in a reef aquarium and what and how it might be doing it.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18615863

from it:
"...Yeasts are ubiquitous in their distribution and populations mainly depend on the type and concentration of organic materials..."


Near-shore environments are usually inhabited by tens to thousands of cells per litre of water, whereas low organic surface to deep-sea oceanic regions contain 10 or fewer cells/litre. Aerobic forms are found more in clean waters and fermentative forms in polluted waters. Yeasts are more abundant in silty muds than in sandy sediments.

Sounds to me like most of them are heterotrophic, ie need organic carbon contrary to the manufactures comments

Others:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1629/3069.full


http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1920818/1454270099/name/fulltext.pdf

The link above goes into probiotic applications of yeast in mariculture(fish farming). This ifrom it is concerning:

...In recent years, it has been well documented that
some marine yeasts are pathogenic to some marine animals.
Like bacterial and virus disease, the yeast disease
has caused big economic losses in maricultural industry
in some regions of China (Xu, 2005; Xu and
Xu, 2003)...

There are also a number of articles about yeast infection in humans associated with swimming in parts of the ocean.


Many yeasts are used in fermentation ,ie conversion of organic carbons to ethanol(as in vodka) btw.

All in all, I think the presentation by the manufacture is nonsensical and does not make a case for the product in tems of how it will do what is claimed.,whether it is safe to use or even what it is. Titanium, cyber cells, artifical intelligence all seems to fit on the SciFi channel.

I suspect it's just another polymer carbon source that feeds facultative heterotrophic bacteria and have no idea whether the specific yeasts in it if any make a positive or negative difference , how the specific fungi lives or if it's safe.
Personally , I prefer soluble organics,vodka and vinegar for a number of reasons including the avoidance of fermentation activities and monomer production. Maybe something will come of further studies on yeast but I really don't think this is it and don't intend to use this product.

 

[nemo's janitor]

Studies refer to yeasts in feeds yes...

 

[tmz]

This daigram from wikipedia of a typical yeast cell(they are unicellular btw) may help with your question Scott:

Some quotes which may e of interest from the Wikepedia piece :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeasts

"...Yeasts are chemoorganotrophs, as they use organic compounds as a source of energy and do not require sunlight to grow. Carbon is obtained mostly from hexose sugars, such as glucose and fructose, or disaccharides such as sucrose and maltose. Some species can metabolize pentose sugars like ribose,<sup id="cite_ref-Barnett1975_17-0" class="reference">[17]</sup> alcohols, and organic acids. Yeast species either require oxygen for aerobic cellular respiration (obligate aerobes) or are anaerobic, but also have aerobic methods of energy production (facultative anaerobes). Unlike bacteria, there are no known yeast species that grow only anaerobically (obligate anaerobes). Yeasts grow best in a neutral or slightly acidic pH environment....

...In general, yeasts are grown in the laboratory on solid growth media or in liquid broths. Common media used for the cultivation of yeasts include potato dextrose agar (PDA) or potato dextrose broth,.....

 

[tmz]

I think that the yeast are consuming the nitrates and phosphates through digestion. Compared to bacteria that can consume nitrates both through digestion and cellular respiration in an anaerobic environment I would think yeast to be less effective

Scott, I think so too at least for the nitrate.

Just a little more on yeast and more specifically wether they use the oxygen from nitrate for energy like denitrifying bacteia do. Apparently they don't.

If you click on the word chemooranotrophs in link in the post above(#72) it links you to a wikipedia description of these organisms. They don't use nitrate for energy;they use organic compounds likely carbohydrates/polymers or sugars/monomers of some type for food and for energy. Heterotrophic facultative denitrifying bacteria go after the same stuff and likely account for the NO3 and PO4 reduction in large measure if not entirely.

Here's they get their energy:


" ....Chemoorganotrophs are organisms which oxidize the chemical bonds in organic compounds as their energy source. Chemoorganotrophs also attain the carbonmolecules that they need for cellular function from these organic compounds. The organic compounds that they oxidize include sugars (i.e. glucose), fats and proteins).<sup id="cite_ref-kt_2-0" class="reference">[2]...."</sup>

<sup id="cite_ref-kt_2-0" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemoorganotroph#cite_note-kt-2</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-kt_2-0" class="reference">
</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-kt_2-0" class="reference">
</sup>

 

[mofro]

Awesome info tmz!
Happy to see the product getting to the Americas.

In essence, it can be run in a skimmer, although personally i think the bubbles might be a bit too fine and from my understanding the idea of the cubes is to not have to spend money on a reactor. That being said, i really do like the tumbler set up jake adams is using in the latest reef builders news about the product. CPR tumbler.

I run mine in a plain old hang on filter with airstone beneath. Cheap easy and zero nitrates.

 

[Crackem]

How much would I use on a 72 bowfront with 50-60 gallons total water volume. It's heavily stocked with fish and my nitrates are 10-25 currently but I've seen them as high as 40. My phosphates are 0.12 currently and I'm running a gfo reactor. I think the directions say not to run any other phosphate media tho? Does this mean I can't run the gfo reactor? Also I've heard horror stories after people stop using biopellets... Tanks crashing etc.. Will this happen if I stop using this product?

 

[mofro]

How much would I use on a 72 bowfront with 50-60 gallons total water volume. It's heavily stocked with fish and my nitrates are 10-25 currently but I've seen them as high as 40. My phosphates are 0.12 currently and I'm running a gfo reactor. I think the directions say not to run any other phosphate media tho? Does this mean I can't run the gfo reactor? Also I've heard horror stories after people stop using biopellets... Tanks crashing etc.. Will this happen if I stop using this product?

60 gal is roughly 240 litre right? With a very heavy bioload and already high NO3, I would suggest adding 3ml per litre taking you to just below a litre. Go with 1 litre initially and see how it works.

Not advisong running a gfh or gfo with this product is nonesense. There are two likely scenarios: nitrates become limiting for biological removal of po4 or po4 becomes limiting for NO3 removal. Scenario 1 is more likely, as addition of nutrients to our tanks is skewed towards po4 in terms of any stoichiometric assimilation of N. fortunately we can use gfh once we reach a point where po4 removal is no longer possible with the cibes.
Scenario two is unlikely, but it has been reported in tanks which have really good po4 export mechanisms and high nitrates. For this purpose the titanium cubes were developed, whereby no3 is taken up by biomass even without any po4 present...
Regarding a tank crash should u stop using the product... Dont really know, as i havent stopped using it...
I suspect that as with any carbon dosing, its more a case of the reefer being able to keep more sensitive species, which he consequently does... Stop the maintenance of low nutrient system and the algae settles in and its a downward spiral from there.

 

[dillct]

So is anyone using this stuff ??...I see a few vendors here in the USA carrying it now although the non-titanium version.

 

[dallasg]

Hi All,

there are 2 versions, Nitra Guard biocubes and Nitra Guard Biocubes Titanium, now there is no titanium, its just a name.
there difference is the normal cubes remove N and P and the titanium remove N without relying on P, when back from vacation i will get more technical info

happy new year to all

 

[trueperc]

I just started using this product on my 300 gallon about a week ago. I am using them in the bomb method. My nitrates are 40 and phosphates around 1.5-2. I am using 3000ml in two of the supplied mess bags.

 

[mandarinfanatic]

how do you control how much carbon is being leached into tank water?
product is rough and is kept in a situation where friction is taking place.
sent from my galaxy s3