Rebuild and recovery of a dead tank

[Paul B]

Isn't running phosban and carbon reactors accomplishing the same thing with alot less problems?

Not at all. Phosban is for phosphate but ozone will not remove phosphate. Ozone only removes organics like fish poop, food and all DOCs (disolved organic carbons)
OK being I am not Waterkeeper I have to quote from my aquarium chemistry book that was written before most of you were born.

"Ozone is very effective because the water is not being contaminated by chemicals. Since it raises the oxidation threshold of the water to it's limit, the highest potential.
Through Ozonation we reach the values which are otherwize only found in the purest waters on earth, the mountain brook and coral reef. All of the reducing compounds are oxidized at the quickest speed. Undesirable intermediate compounds, which often disturb the water for an uncomfortable long time and are the cause of critical complications, are soon made non-toxic, and the highly reductive reducing agents originating from many processes of decomposition and the very dangerous bacterial toxins are prevented from developing at all.
In other words, dangerous compounds do not develop.

Also Capn, the toxins that most corals use for defense will stay in the water for a long time unless removed. We can't measure these compounds but they are toxic to many corals.
The slime that sloughs off corals (and fish) is also oxidized.
Oxone also does not have to be maintained like carbon, it keeps working. I have used carbon as long as I have salt water and feel it is a very important thing to have.

Another interesting fact I have found in this book, which I have always agreed with

"It is a fact that seawater with green algae in it is surprisingly stable"

 

[jason2459]

Got a quick probe test in before the next wave of company gets here.

12:30p
Temp: 78.9
pH: 7.88
ORP: 159

I thought the hair algae was going away but it looks like my blenny is doing some house keeping himself. He keeps picking at the base and spitting the algae onto the ground. I was going to work on it on Sunday when the company left and get it off the rocks but looks like my blenny is doing it for me.

 

[reeferoo]

What an excellent thread. Subscribed for sure. Way to follow PaulB! Really love the stand and the baby is so cuuute!

Can't wait to watch this tank grow and mature

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15567374#post15567374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Not at all. Phosban is for phosphate but ozone will not remove phosphate. Ozone only removes organics like fish poop, food and all DOCs (disolved organic carbons)
OK being I am not Waterkeeper I have to quote from my aquarium chemistry book that was written before most of you were born.

"Ozone is very effective because the water is not being contaminated by chemicals. Since it raises the oxidation threshold of the water to it's limit, the highest potential.
Through Ozonation we reach the values which are otherwize only found in the purest waters on earth, the mountain brook and coral reef. All of the reducing compounds are oxidized at the quickest speed. Undesirable intermediate compounds, which often disturb the water for an uncomfortable long time and are the cause of critical complications, are soon made non-toxic, and the highly reductive reducing agents originating from many processes of decomposition and the very dangerous bacterial toxins are prevented from developing at all.
In other words, dangerous compounds do not develop.

Also Capn, the toxins that most corals use for defense will stay in the water for a long time unless removed. We can't measure these compounds but they are toxic to many corals.
The slime that sloughs off corals (and fish) is also oxidized.
Oxone also does not have to be maintained like carbon, it keeps working. I have used carbon as long as I have salt water and feel it is a very important thing to have.

Another interesting fact I have found in this book, which I have always agreed with

"It is a fact that seawater with green algae in it is surprisingly stable"

okay Paul I get it I was under the impression that carbon also removed coral toxins etc.
I just don't know if you need to run both carbon and ozone if ozone is doing a similar job??

 

[jason2459]

Good questions cap'n. I'm not currently running carbon but do have some in case I need it for some reason. I do plan on blending some up and adding with DE in the diatom filter when I use it though.

 

[jason2459]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15569322#post15569322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeferoo
What an excellent thread. Subscribed for sure. Way to follow PaulB! Really love the stand and the baby is so cuuute!

Can't wait to watch this tank grow and mature

Thanks for following reeferoo. Hope you get something out of it. I've learned a lot on this site so far.

 

[WaterKeeper]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15567374#post15567374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
OK being I am not Waterkeeper I have to quote from my aquarium chemistry book that was written before most of you were born.

And he knows his O₃ by golly.

But so does Randy Holmes-Fraley and since he is such a fan has written
Ozone in the Reef Aquarium, Part !
Ozone Part II
Ozone Part III
which covers it better than most books and saves me a ton of writing.

Almost forgot- ORP in the Reef Aquarium

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15570777#post15570777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
And he knows his O₃ by golly.

But so does Randy Holmes-Fraley and since he is such a fan has written
Ozone in the Reef Aquarium, Part !
Ozone Part II
Ozone Part III
which covers it better than most books and saves me a ton of writing.

Almost forgot- ORP in the Reef Aquarium

darn it WK I hate reading----aquarium articles are boring---except PaulB's and yours of course

 

[WaterKeeper]

Well setting up an automated ozonator system is a fairly steep investment and done wrong it can create problems for the tank and even possibly people living in the house. Randy tells how to do it right so it is worth a little time doing a some homework.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15570648#post15570648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jason2459
Good questions cap'n. I'm not currently running carbon but do have some in case I need it for some reason. I do plan on blending some up and adding with DE in the diatom filter when I use it though.

Its actually a good idea to run both\

"Ozone also has a dark side. When reacted with seawater, ozone produces a variety of highly oxidized halogens such as BrOH and BrO3-. If the ozone produced oxidants are not largely removed with activated carbon, they may enter the aquarium and be hazards to the most sensitive organisms in the aquarium (which are likely eggs or early stage larvae)."

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

thanks for the link wk

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15571357#post15571357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Well setting up an automated ozonator system is a fairly steep investment and done wrong it can create problems for the tank and even possibly people living in the house. Randy tells how to do it right so it is worth a little time doing a some homework.

just joking with you WK---reading the articles as we speak

 

[jason2459]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15570777#post15570777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
And he knows his O₃ by golly.

But so does Randy Holmes-Fraley and since he is such a fan has written
Ozone in the Reef Aquarium, Part !
Ozone Part II
Ozone Part III
which covers it better than most books and saves me a ton of writing.

Almost forgot- ORP in the Reef Aquarium

Those two were one of the first few articles I read on here even before I ran into Paul B's thread. I forgot about that second one on ORP so thanks for the links.

 

[jason2459]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15571429#post15571429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Its actually a good idea to run both\

"Ozone also has a dark side. When reacted with seawater, ozone produces a variety of highly oxidized halogens such as BrOH and BrO3-. If the ozone produced oxidants are not largely removed with activated carbon, they may enter the aquarium and be hazards to the most sensitive organisms in the aquarium (which are likely eggs or early stage larvae)."

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

thanks for the link wk

I started with some carbon in the refug where it was getting fed from the skimmer. After I got couple different macro algae back there I took the carbon out to see what would happen. So far both the chaeto and grac. have both been growing. I should get an actual residual ozone test kit to see how much is back there and if any at all is making it into the main tank. I probably should throw in some carbon back there as eventually I need pods to reproduce back there. I'm sure the residual ozone would probably effect them more then anything else. I guess I see this tank much like Paul B does with his, a long term experiment. I like the challenge and see what happens when something changes. I have always found the smallest things to be some of the most interesting. I remember back in the Key's growing up I would always scoop up mud around the mangroves and try and see all the little living things going on in there.

BTW, I have moved the ozonizer back to 50% as there didn't seem to be much of a difference and I do feel safer at that level and was the planned level to be at in the beginning. I probably wont touch it again until after the initial cycle is finally finished. Probably be about another month or so. I do think the GHA growth has peaked. BTW, I have identified the type of GHA as the ever so lovely firn like bryopsis which is probably why the Blenny doesn't want to eat it but ever so helpfully is cleaning off my rock work.

 

[Paul B]

I used to run carbon along with my ozonizer like was always thought to be necessary but now I am spiting Waterkeeper and not using any carbon
As was said my tank is an experiment and I have been running ozone for the entire time my tank was set up. Lately I do not run much carbon but I do run the return water through an algae trough. I don't know if that has any effects on anything that the ozone is manufacturing but if it has not happened by now, I doubt it will happen soon.
I have a problem with running too much carbon although I do run it occasionally. It seems I spend a lot of time collect NSW and speaking of the benefits so I would rather not remove some of the good qualities of the NSW with carbon. When I run carbon, I do so before a water change to eliminate substances that ozone will not remove. Then after I put in NSW I want those qualities to stay in the tank for a while.
I don't know if that makes any sence but I used to run much more carbon and I don't see any difference. I keep the stuff on hand in case the water had an odor or a color I don't like. Sometimes I do have to run my NSW through it if I collect it in the Sound and it looks funky like my socks :eek1:
I keep my ozonator cranked up as high as it will go. If there is anything in the water at all, ozone will be used up. But then I have that 5' algae trough. Ozone has no chance to get through that being it is filled with all sorts of algae even some cyano. Any residual ozone making it to there would be used up instantly in the process of oxidizing algae which of course is organic.
I think my system of large amounts of Ozone
along with the algae trough (and of course a RUGF) is the best way to go. After all with 40 years of experimenting I think I got it right. It may all be BS but it is what it is and doesn't just work, it works with hardly any maintenance. I need a lot of time to take ladies out on the boat and don't have time to change carbon.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15573200#post15573200 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I used to run carbon along with my ozonizer like was always thought to be necessary but now I am spiting Waterkeeper and not using any carbon
As was said my tank is an experiment and I have been running ozone for the entire time my tank was set up. Lately I do not run much carbon but I do run the return water through an algae trough. I don't know if that has any effects on anything that the ozone is manufacturing but if it has not happened by now, I doubt it will happen soon.
I have a problem with running too much carbon although I do run it occasionally. It seems I spend a lot of time collect NSW and speaking of the benefits so I would rather not remove some of the good qualities of the NSW with carbon. When I run carbon, I do so before a water change to eliminate substances that ozone will not remove. Then after I put in NSW I want those qualities to stay in the tank for a while.
I don't know if that makes any sence but I used to run much more carbon and I don't see any difference. I keep the stuff on hand in case the water had an odor or a color I don't like. Sometimes I do have to run my NSW through it if I collect it in the Sound and it looks funky like my socks :eek1:
I keep my ozonator cranked up as high as it will go. If there is anything in the water at all, ozone will be used up. But then I have that 5' algae trough. Ozone has no chance to get through that being it is filled with all sorts of algae even some cyano. Any residual ozone making it to there would be used up instantly in the process of oxidizing algae which of course is organic.
I think my system of large amounts of Ozone
along with the algae trough (and of course a RUGF) is the best way to go. After all with 40 years of experimenting I think I got it right. It may all be BS but it is what it is and doesn't just work, it works with hardly any maintenance. I need a lot of time to take ladies out on the boat and don't have time to change carbon.

Of course I agree with you and soak up everything you say like a Manhatten sponge.
I still have a hard time figuring out what balance of organics I need in the water since my display tank is totally lps corals but at the same time 4 anemonies. I gradually leaning toward more anemonies too.
I did do a 30 percent water change the other day but that was the first since June. As I have stated before the corals have done beautifully.
I have always run carbon 24/7 as I feel it does a good job of getting rid of coral toxins esp with the leathers that I have in my tank.
I have an oversized skimmer, a remote deep sand bed and two refugiums.
Am a really going to see what advantage in running ozone in my system.

BTW
Randy states the other reason for running carbon along with ozone is for your protection as it can absorb ozone before escaping to the atmosphere

 

[Paul B]

I still have a hard time figuring out what balance of organics I need in the water since my display tank is totally lps

I don't understand this. You don't need any organics in your water. Organics is what you are trying to remove.

Randy states the other reason for running carbon along with ozone is for your protection as it can absorb ozone before escaping to the atmosphere

Randy knows that ozone smells and is very easy to tell if it is escaping to the atmosphere. If my air line comes off I can tell immediately when I go downstairs to where my tank is. It smells nice and clean but I can easily smell the ozone. If you design the system correctly and inject ozone into a skimmer large enough to utilize it correctly, there will be no free ozone left. The stuff works so well that it turns into ordinary oxygen as soon as it encounters anything organic and in a fish tank there are organics all over the place especially a tank such as you have with all of those large tangs.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Right on about the smell but not everybody can smell it. It seems that a small percentage of people, for some reason or the other, are unable to detect it even at fairly high concentrations. Although the chance is remote, they could encounter some lung damage if they were to place their nose directly over a skimmer that was venting ozone into the air at the discharge. I have never heard of anyone being harmed by using it but I figured I throw in the safety warning to cover my behind. Kind of like the warning on lighters that tell you it contains a flammable gas.

 

[Paul B]

they could encounter some lung damage if they were to place their nose directly over a skimmer

OK people you heard WK, If you are looking for a place to put your nose, find someplace else besides the top of the skimmer like maybe the gas range.
Good advice, sometimes I find my Mother N Law sleeping with her nose right on the top of the skimmer.

Also don't use the ozone hose to clean wax out of your ears or burn the hairs out of your nose.
Also if you can't smell Ozone, find a different hobby, maybe picking up cigarette butts or collecting rare pictures of Paris Hilton
with clothes on.

Kind of like the warning on lighters that tell you it contains a flammable gas.

Yes and the directions on shampoo bottles. and the little packet that comes in camera's that says "do not eat" Before they started putting those warning labels on there, I used to make sandwiches out of those things.
And whatever you do, don't take those labels off of furnature that says "Do Not Remove This Tag Under Penalty Of the Law" because the tag police will come after you, they work with the tang police. :smokin:

 

[WaterKeeper]

Exactly, Paul has learned something over the years.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15573596#post15573596 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I don't understand this. You don't need any organics in your water. Organics is what you are trying to remove.

The lps coral guys have stated that some lps corals prefer a "dirtier"water then sps corals. I guess I thought dirtier meant more organically laden.