Red Dragon SPS Growth

[Moser]

Similar ones are not near as delicate...i have seen the ones from bali. I have yet to see one the same in real life or in pictures.

Please post up a picture of one that you feel is the same from anywhere other than the original red dragon source....

The original is from where?.

You seem to be claiming that there was only ever one original and that all others are different?. This coral has been around Europe,owell before it reached the States or Canada as many of the Bali deep water corals have.

I don't have this coral, but my LFS has had the blue and red ones in several times.

I will have them both ordered in and get pictures for you.... It might be a little wait as he can't get them every time he orders, but he has had them at least 4-5 times. The ocean is too big a place for there to be only one original.....


Mo

 

[dvanacker]

The original is from RR Canada...all sources that ive seen go back to that colony. Again others are similar but i have yet to see even a picture of a colony not from that source that is exactly the same.

Also i disagree that there has to be more imported...there are truly rare acros that you never see imported again (or extremely rare)...tyree pink lemonade and purple monster seem to come to mind. In all there years i have yet to see a perfect imported impostor of these corals.

 

[stevedola]

you mean to tell me that in the entire ocean, there's only 1 "red dragon"-"Pink lemonade"-"Purple Monster"? Maybe they're rare but they're not 1 of a kind rare. If it were the same coral or so similar you could not notice--how would you know that someone else has a duplicate coral? its not like corals have serial numbers. I bet that wholesalers see these corals every once and a great while and the coral is put into distribution as the real deal...sometimes you cant tell---sometimes the coral is slightly different and gets exposed.

 

[dvanacker]

Im not saying its not possible......but Im saying I've never seen it and I've seen a crap ton of shipments and Im on the internet a lot.

And Im not including all named corals.....corals like red planet you do see come in wild every once in a while. At least similar enough to pass them off as "red planet".

I live in a country that doesnt necessarily have access to these named corals and I know one importer that tries very hard to get similar ones and I have yet to see him succeed on some.....they are hard to get.

Also note that for some strange reason you never see tyree sunset montipora come in wild or maricultured yet it has been captive grown so well for so long its all over the place....strange huh.

You can believe what you want but Im seen enough to draw my conclusion.

 

[aqua80]

I wonder also if you take these slightly different but close looking wild corals in aquariums conditions for 1-2 years... will they morph to finally be exactly the same ?
ocean and captive conditions are so different...
especially deepwater corals...

 

[stevedola]

fair enough. regardless...the corals we referenced are beauty's.

 

[jroovers]

you mean to tell me that in the entire ocean, there's only 1 "red dragon"-"Pink lemonade"-"Purple Monster"? Maybe they're rare but they're not 1 of a kind rare. If it were the same coral or so similar you could not notice--how would you know that someone else has a duplicate coral? its not like corals have serial numbers. I bet that wholesalers see these corals every once and a great while and the coral is put into distribution as the real deal...sometimes you cant tell---sometimes the coral is slightly different and gets exposed.

I'm not an expert, but it is conceivable that there is only "one" coral that is specifically like that. Maybe unlikely, but not impossible. Acroporas especially in the wild are known for hybridization through sexual reproduction, which makes classification and identification of subspecies difficult, given that there is potentially an endless number of possibilities/hybrids that could spontaneously arise. So they could very well be one of a kinds or something very close to it.

That said, I don't get the hype over this coral, probably the most overrated in the hobby IMO. To each their own! :thumbsup:

 

[N_prise]

Tom, looks really good! Now I run into you on this forum too! Lol

 

[Flagswipe]

Here are a couple of pics of mine. I received my frag from 250G many years ago. I have grown it and lost it three times over now

It is growing like a weed in my tank right now and has been fragged many many times.

Here it is approx 6 months ago

And a pic taken a month or so ago I believe.

Some love it some hate it, to me it is one of my all time favorites. Its delicate and colourfull when happy and I think everyone should have a piece in their tank.

Yours is a great piece, enjoy it

Dwayne

 

[MammothReefer]

wow nice.. I've got a few frags grown out from a piece I got from copps that I accidentally broke. The little puddle that was left in my DT has taken off, and is now leaving the pieces i had in my frag tank in the dust. It's kinda nuts since main frag is now pretty tall but didn't branch much and the puddle is growing really thick with a ton of branches it's start to finally grow up now and i'm sure at this point has about the same mass as a piece that started out infinitely larger then it's self.

 

[Moser]

The original is from RR Canada...all sources that ive seen go back to that colony. Again others are similar but i have yet to see even a picture of a colony not from that source that is exactly the same.

Also i disagree that there has to be more imported...there are truly rare acros that you never see imported again (or extremely rare)...tyree pink lemonade and purple monster seem to come to mind. In all there years i have yet to see a perfect imported impostor of these corals.

Sorry Darryl, not true!.

I don't see how you can possibly, even remotely claim that only one colony was ever imported from the ocean and no others exist.

I have two purple monster frags, that were fragged from wild colonies from a LFS and look exactly like all the US purple monster acro's. They are Purple monster acro's!.

Impostor is the name you give to the same coral, but not set foot in US?.....It suggest it's a fake. How can something naturally produced be fake??.

We now regularly import wild Aussie Strawberry shortcakes. They are all over the UK, as are many of the Nasuta's, the colourful monti's etc etc. They are the same coral as you have there.... The only true beneift of lineage is that you will know what a poorly coloured frag will turn out like. When we buy them, we have no idea, unless they are coloured up already.

I understand trying to protect lineage, to keep inflated prices, but it's simply not true that these corals do not exist in other parts of the world. They originate from the same source and are the same corals- period.

My Setosa originated from Germany, not the US, but it's the same coral.... or is it an impostor?.... it sure looks like any other Setosa and so say many other reefers. So does my strawberry shortcake or my Red planet or my two purple monster frags. They've never seen US soil.... so they are impostors?.

These corals are around. The lineage story is getting old- it's more like a protection racket to keep inflated prices, from what I can see. I can understand it from all that keep high priced corals though, especially when they are ready to frag their corals and get a return. It doesn't mean that they are exclusive corals though.... just the most colourful and pretty.


Mo

 

[Moser]

Also note that for some strange reason you never see tyree sunset montipora come in wild or maricultured yet it has been captive grown so well for so long its all over the place....strange huh.

You can believe what you want but Im seen enough to draw my conclusion.

I have seen it a few times in the UK. They always come in wild here. I have seen it 3-4 times.

Funnily enough, I was in the shop today and a regular said he took one 2 weeks ago that came in brown and was the sunset monti. Red base with green polyps.

I have seen a massive colony of reverse sunset, the mystic monti, all wild shipped.

I guess you haven't looked hard enough?!.

Mo

 

[dvanacker]

Ok...you are entitled to your opinion but Im educated enough to have mine as well. I can address everything you have mentioned here.

1)there are "purple monster" here in Canada imported by ReefRaft. To me it is obvious they are not the same. You say you got it....show me a picture....a truthful picture of one not coming from the same lineage. You may think they are the same but someone who has the real deal may be able to tell the difference.
2)Aussie Shortcake - well this tells me you don't know all that much about named corals and lineage because they are all wild really. Actually in Canada lots of people have SSC and I can only think of one person that has grown one from a frag. No one claimed this one had lineage other than a wild aussie piece that is still imported regularly today. Its not super rare.
3)Setosa - these are rare yes, but I'm aware that they can still be found and imported wild so no surprise there. Im sure people pay decent bucks still for these wild setosa's in the UK.

Trust me, names are what you make it. I have never paid more for a coral because of its silly name....I pay more for hardy captive grown corals with nice colour. Call it what ever you want.

I have access to lots of wild corals but still I have struggled to get my hands on some of these named collector corals simply because they are super nice, rare, captive grown, hardy etc....

 

[dvanacker]

sunset monti doesnt have a red base.....

Also I know mystic sunset has come in wild....and same with reverse sunset....usually australia.

Dude Im not claiming all named corals can not be found in the wild. Any of them probably can but IM saying that some happen often, some very rare and some seems like never.

 

[Moser]

I'm not an expert, but it is conceivable that there is only "one" coral that is specifically like that. Maybe unlikely, but not impossible. Acroporas especially in the wild are known for hybridization through sexual reproduction, which makes classification and identification of subspecies difficult, given that there is potentially an endless number of possibilities/hybrids that could spontaneously arise. So they could very well be one of a kinds or something very close to it.

That said, I don't get the hype over this coral, probably the most overrated in the hobby IMO. To each their own! :thumbsup:

Isn't the point that just as you all have frags from the original imported colony, that colony was a frag from a colony in the ocean. Even IF that happened to be the only colony like it in the ocean, anywhere in the world, then another "frag" of that colony could easily appear again and does.....

My point is that the IF was a BIG IF in the first place!!. Those corals get fragged by ocean currents and grow in many places. It's naiive to think that other colonies don't exist.

Mo

 

[dvanacker]

Also Moser i dont know about your LFS but if a coral comes in that is a setosa or mystic monti the LFS here either frags it up and sells the frags for $ or sells the colony for really big $. If the names are a racket than finding a few more wild ones doesnt bring the price down.

If you have an imported coral the exact same as a named collector in the US...and want to call it the same name so be it. But be careful what you call the exact same as we know those maricultured superman montis are not as nice as the original or some others. I also have two different rainbow montis and one is significantly nicer than the other.

What i do have a problem with is when i go to the LFS and spend $ on a small frag of "oregon" tort only to realize later that it is obviously not the same tort. This has happened to me a few times.

 

[dvanacker]

dp sry

 

[Moser]

I must be confusing the Sunset Monti.... which is it?.

Thanks
Mo

 

[Moser]

Also Moser i dont know about your LFS but if a coral comes in that is a setosa or mystic monti the LFS here either frags it up and sells the frags for $ or sells the colony for really big $. If the names are a racket than finding a few more wild ones doesnt bring the price down.

If you have an imported coral the exact same as a named collector in the US...and want to call it the same name so be it. But be careful what you call the exact same as we know those maricultured superman montis are not as nice as the original or some others. I also have two different rainbow montis and one is significantly nicer than the other.

What i do have a problem with is when i go to the LFS and spend $ on a small frag of "oregon" tort only to realize later that it is obviously not the same tort. This has happened to me a few times.

The problem here is just that.

You don't know what it is, until it colours up..... but when they do, we know exactly what they are. Some do choose to frag them and make big ££. It's taking off here too!..... but they still come in as original wild/ mari colonies.

Mo

 

[dvanacker]

The frag i bought was fully coloured. It wasnt till it got bigger and i got more knowledgeable that i realized it wasnt the same.

You still didnt address the fact that we can have very similar corals with varying quality (ie.superman monti etc). I have owned 3 different blue/purple milleporas but when i got an actual palmers blue millepora it blew the rest away in terms of colour and growth. Same with pink millepora (or any colour for that matter)...some are simply nicer, faster growing, etc. than others.