S. gigantea help please.........

[a4twenty]

well i thought after 5+ months i was out of the water but things have changed for the worse. in the last three weeks he hast started acting strange. he will start changing shapes, rolling up into a goblet then laying flat. also his appetite is gone though i have seen him expel waste so i am hoping he's getting some mysis. he has definitely lost mass and i am very sceptical he will make it but for the sake of my clowns ( 7 years with me ) i am willing to try almost anything.


system info:

pH: 8.2
Temp: 80F - 81F
SG: 1.026 ( refractometer )
NH3: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 5 - 10ppm ( more below )
PO4: undetectable ( more below )
Ca: 460
ALK: 8.2
Mg: 1400

thats all i test for.

its a ~170G system with sump, refugium ( with chaeto ) and remote seep sand bed. lighting is currently only (1) 400W 14K light, with the anemone almost directly underneath. i switched out my RDSB a couple of weeks ago and started doing daily 10G water changes ( usually 10G per week ) to offset the slow rise in nitrates ( from 0 ). flow consists of hydor koralia 4's and a seio 1500 for a total turn over of 37.5x. i run carbon 24/7 in a reactor and only stopped recently to run a GFO ( Rowaphos ) for a couple of days as i started seeing a touch of cyano. this is normal for my tank, i run the GFO maybe twice a year and this time i traced it back to a bad TDS meter and need to replace my RO membrane. i use only RODI water with a very low TDS, currently 0 ( old system was producing 8ppm after DI ). i feed the anemone twice a week, either silversides or mysis and use selcon but he stopped eating 2 weeks ago.

other critters:

i have 4 maybe 5 GBTA's that are ~18" away from the carpet and don't move ( much )
(1) Purple Tang
(1) damsel
(2) false percs

assorted clean up crew consisting of a couple brittle stars,snails and few hermits.


recent problems:

i allowed my Mg to drop to ~ 1200 ppm and after reading a thread here on RC raised it slowly.

ballast burnt out, leaving me with only one light which i centred on the tank. 400W SE 14K ~ 6 months old

one heater crapped out ( my only none EBO ) and allowed the tank to drop to ~78F at night. i don't know how long this was going on for but it has been replaced and temp is now stable day and night.

after removing my RDSB my nitrates started to rise, i expected this and tested frequently. as soon as it became detectable i increased my water changes to compensate. currently doing 10G a day and nitrates are holding at ~ 5 - 10ppm. the RDSB has been online for a couple of weeks and i expect it to kick in shortly.

if there is anything i have missed please ask and if you have any idea's please let me know, thank in advance for any help you can offer ( my clowns will thank you too )

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I would permanently remove all BTA's from the tank and do some water changes.

 

[taylor t]

I'm not a believer in chemical warefare with nems - Some are certain of it - that's great. I've switched it up a bit with RBTA, LTA, sebae, and misc. carpets, and I'm not convinced, but that's not the issue. Just my experience. I also have a +200 gallons system with a gigantea. Chemical warefare may be true, I've never experienced/seen it though. Maybe I have, and just not realized it. I currently have a gigantea with a sebae, living together, going on 6+ months no problems. I have noticed, when another nem in the system is DYING, it puts a damper on everyone elses inflation, until it's removed. I also understand, most see 6 months with gigantea as still in the beginning stages. That's fine with me too.

On a side note, I've ripped my gigantea's foot twice trying to move it, as it's planted on 2 rocks, and it's healed both times. One time, it had a large ball hanging by a thread. When happy, they will repair themselves.

I run carbon on such a haphazard schedule - when I feel like it, I can't say if it works or not. I have it, I've been trying to keep it in the system, and as I type this, remembered I haven't had it in my sump for a couple weeks now. OOps....

I've found with mine, when it's looking not so hot, it's starving for flow. I've gone back and forth from korillia's to maxijet 1200's pointed right at the mouth, to "help" inlfate it. It looks sad a few days, but then, after getting massive "blasts" of current, it bounces back. I feed mine silversides every day, and, after feeding it, give it a 6 hour period of "still" water to digest it. I also, sometimes, have to fend off the fish from robbing food from it. I've also shut off the lights to stop the robbing of food, that works pretty good, as my angel and tang love to steal food. My clowns dig into it, and rip out the food. I also have a tang that looks like it gets ich, but actually, it's tentacle pieces from diving in and robbing food from it.

Just my experience, when it's looking weak, I blast it with "killer" current, looking like it's gonna die anyways (from too much flow), pushing tentacles inside out, and when I stop blasting it with current, it looks a whole lot better (a day or 2 later) inbetween flow blasts. I keep my power heads pointed right at the mouth on a timer, 1 minute on, 1 minute off. I'm a strong beleiver that a massive blast in the mouth can slow/stop melting. Mine is proof, but what do I know...

You also test for much more than me, but for the basics - ph, alk, calcium, temp, mag, those (yours) are all much more presice than how I test. PH goes from 8-8.4 (am, pm), KH goes from 6-9 (really the only thing I test every few days, but add every day), depending if I run out of kalk water. Mag I rarely test, but add Tech M often, strontium I add often, Iodine I just add Tech I. Water change, sometimes, 10 (fishtank), sometimes 42 (brut 44 gal) gallons, sometimes 5 (RC bucket). Sometimes 2x a week, sometimes not for a month, I'm not really on a good schedule. Good luck, I hope yours pulls through so we can see more pics in the future! This is just what has worked for me. I wish I had a magic thing that I could tell you to do, but I don't. This is just what I've done so far. Good luck.

 

[taylor t]

One more thing, my temp goes from 79-83 sometimes (laundry room, so we get heat from laundry appliances and {bleach fumage too}), so I don't think that's a big deal.

I'm on a well, and don't use DI, and I'm lucky if my conductivity meter reads 13 or less from my RO. Usually 20-30 is more like it. We drink it too.

Mine was under 150 10K lights, until a couple weeks ago, and the last couple weeks I'm trying to acclimate it to 250 20K radiums with 21" deep. 400 watts on yours? WOW! My stuff's been having a hard time adjusting to 250! I found out how to get rid of xenia - fry it!

 

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13890077#post13890077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
I would permanently remove all BTA's from the tank and do some water changes.

i will try this tomorrow, i have 40G SW mixing since this morning and another 40G RODI already made.

i thought of this, as i have heard people say it online too but.......


the system they will be going to ( i wont be selling them right away as i'm not sure this is the problem ) has a couple large carpets, RBTA, GBTA and an LTA. it is a larger system that has been established for a very long time and the owner hasn't seen any negative effects from keeping them all in the same system but keeps them separated.

and

one of my LFS's displays has a gigantea in it and is plumbed to the rest of their anemone tanks. they usually have 6 - 12 anemones in the system and while some come and go quickly there are several that they are fattening up that have been in there for months.

i'm not listing these examples to dismiss or discredit your advice, just observations from local reefers i trust as much as i do yours.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13890502#post13890502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
I have noticed, when another nem in the system is DYING, it puts a damper on everyone elses inflation, until it's removed.

i thought about this too, luckily none are dying ( unsure of the future of my gigantea but he's ok for now ) i thought one of the GBTA's was splitting because he went behind his rock for a while but he soon reappeared when it was feeding time.


i will also try your advice and give him some more flow. i did swap out a couple of MJ's for another K4 but this was after he started acting strange and he still gets pretty decent flow.

i don't test for I but think i have a test kit around here somewhere. i have always just relied on water changes to replace trace elements, especially ones that are easily skimmed out. shortly after this started i began adding a couple drops of Lugols to my sump weekly, its well below the recommended dosage for my system but i didn't want to go crazy.


mid November i took some pics and a few vids of the anemone with the clowns cleaning their rock, i assume for more eggs. i didn't post them because i was waiting for the 6 months mark ( dec. 1 ) to celebrate, but don't feel much like celebrating any more


thank you for your observations and advice, if you think of anything else please let me know.

 

[a4twenty]

well its been just over a week of large daily water changes and have provided a BTA free environment, there was 5 of them so i'm wondering of the split could have played some part.

i've been busy so that i haven't noticed any of the shape changing but i'm going to keep my eye on him today. he's not ( nor was he ) gaping or turning inside out, just shrinking.

normally i run ~ 1 - 2 cups of carbon in my reactor and change it every couple of weeks. i added double that last Saturday and replaced it yesterday.

unfortunately no change on the eating front and i have tried everything. i can't tell if he has lost any more mass but is definitely much smaller than when i got him. he may also be lightening up which i fear is a horrible turn for the worse.

at this point i am contemplating moving him to my LFS to get him out of the system completely. i have tested for absolutely everything and cannot find anything thats off.


any thoughts or ideas??? i really want to save this guy :sad2:

 

[taylor t]

Guess no one wants to touch this one...

If I was to guess, it's not water. It's flow. It doesn't sound like anything else is off in the tank. The only thing you have that I can see I don't have is alot more light, and nitrates. My nitrates are not detectable. I've noticed mine "shuts down" if it's not happy with the flow. I'm still shocked at how much flow these things will take to make happy. I would have never guessed, until I saw a video of one getting completely distorted in shape from the high flow-just about blown off the rock. That's what I do to mine. It loves it now. Before, it would have never stayed put with craze flow. It's changed.

Have you tried to increase your flow - not just point a korillia at it a little more, but strong, insane flow - directly pointed at the mouth, on/off cycled, to see if it improves? I've inflated mine in the past from 8 to 12 inches with a 1200 4 inches from the mouth - in very short time - seconds. I know, "yea, another dork preaching high flow" - I used to think the same thing. That would be my last ditch effort, before I gave up and shipped it to certain death (LFS).

Also wondering, how has the tentacle movement been? Do they mostly move, or mostly still? I'm just curious.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, as I HATE

 

[taylor t]

Opps... As, I HATE when people tell me what to do who don't know me... The above was just my thoughts of things I'd try. Good luck. I sure would hate to see this one check out. It's been around too long not to try to keep it going. I wouldn't give up.

 

[taylor t]

Here's a pic of mine during the calm. Looks peaceful. It's not even close to peaceful with the powerheads on.

Here's the mouth during violent flow. Sorry it's blurry, but it should give you an idea of how much flow I give mine.

It literally opens it's mouth for it. Sometimes food comes back out, that's why I give it a rest for a few hours after feeding it.
This is just what works for me. Mine goes downhill quickly without that much flow. I've tried less. I actually started with much less, and as I watched a slow decline, even though the photo's I've posted in the past showed an increase in size. I've increased the flow to what I have now. I could tell it was going down just by behavior, until flow was greatly increased.
Sorry for all this, as I just spent all this time, and flow may not even be an issue for you. Your photo just looks like mine has in the past though. Keep trying something until it works!

 

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945766#post13945766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
Guess no one wants to touch this one...

i know, not even a good luck or anything. leads me to believe they all think it's doomed, good thing i don't give up!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945766#post13945766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
If I was to guess, it's not water. It's flow. It doesn't sound like anything else is off in the tank. The only thing you have that I can see I don't have is alot more light, and nitrates.

i tried increasing it, the white spot to the right of the nem is where he used to sit, he moved over out of the flow the sandbed has started kicking in and nitrates are very low again, the large water changes helped too, i'm sure.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945766#post13945766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
before I gave up and shipped it to certain death (LFS)

i wouldn't need to ship him, i could drive him over. my LFS is probably a little different than the ones you are used to, it's one guy ( 30+ years exp. ) and his flunky ( sorry john if you read that , who is very knowledgeable too ) that actually care about the animals and will bend over backwards to help me try to save this guy. he has offered numerous times to clear out space in any tank i want and provide personal care to help bring this anemone around.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945766#post13945766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
Also wondering, how has the tentacle movement been? Do they mostly move, or mostly still? I'm just curious.

yep still tingling he's all saddled up this morning ( he was in the pic a bit too, thats a 3 1/2" - 4" 7 year old clown for reference ) but once he wakes up a bit more i'll try working with the flow again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945782#post13945782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
Opps... As, I HATE when people tell me what to do who don't know me... The above was just my thoughts of things I'd try. Good luck. I sure would hate to see this one check out. It's been around too long not to try to keep it going. I wouldn't give up.

hey, i'm asking for any help or thoughts you guys have. i appreciate your help and kind words and trust me, i don't give up.

 

[john rochon]

I think moving this anenome will probaly kill it or stress it out even more. chances are its reacting to your sandbed removal.
or something else, anenomes may be simple creatures but they do things sometimes it seems for no reason. my LTA moved from is 3 month spot into the dark for no reason I can see.

 

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13946963#post13946963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by john rochon
I think moving this anenome will probaly kill it or stress it out even more. chances are its reacting to your sandbed removal.

thats why i didn't move him to the LFS or QT at the beginning but i am running out of idea's and i'm trying to eliminate any problems with my tank or water.

the sand bed i removed was a remote deep sand bed and the anemone was reacting before i took it off line. it was as simple as shutting a valve, no dust storm or release of any kind to the tank. there was still 120# + of sand in the system and no parameter spikes, other than a slow gradual build of NO3 that i tried to maintain with daily water changes.

thanks for the reply, i'm off to try and feed again. i may yank the clowns to the QT for the attempted feeding, they love their nem so much and are so rough.

 

[delphinus]

Just saw this thread. Good luck man.

I find that once the feeding response stops, it's a really hard turnaround (I haven't been able to save any once they stopped eating). There's probably a number of things that can cause them to go into this tailspin state.

 

[elegance coral]

I would remove the clowns. At least temporarily. They can interfere with the anemones ability to feed. Especially when their feeding response has slowed. That's just me though. Good luck.

 

[a4twenty]

thanks guys,

i did move the clowns, they can be so rough. it's now one month since he ate but still looks the same. i stopped the large water changes and my NO3 is ~2, all other params fine.

i'm almost ready to stick a pair of tongs in his mouth, pry it open and force feed him, though i'm sure this will only make matters worse.

looking back through all my pics of this guy, it appears he may have been shrinking from day one. it's so hard to tell when they have that much flow and saddle up, they can look so different from hour to hour.

well i'm not giving up, i may just have to will him to live. after reading all the unsuccseful attempts at keeping this species, i don't think i will try again but we'll see.

again thanks to all that have helped and i'll let you know when he's better

 

[taylor t]

I used a powerhead to open it's mouth (mine stopped before also), and switched it off using a surge strip, and quickly inserted a very small peice of silverside before it closed up. Then I let it sit in no/very low flow for hours. When I returned flow, it was all with small, short bursts, to bearly open the mouth, to see how it was digesting. I'd see the piece wrapped up in little white strings inside. Then I'd let it sit a while longer. I'd return a lower "general" flow, just to move it a little after that. That seemed to work for me, it might be worth a shot. Keeping the food response going is one of the reasons I like to feed mine a piece everyday, so I can observe it's behavior too. I've had to remove my clowns twice so far, as they are pretty rough sometimes, and insist on stealing the food.
That's just what I've done. Yours doesn't look too far gone to me to save. It appears as if a little pampering may bring it back around, but like you said, after all the unsuccessful attempts, I don't know.
Hard to believe dumb bags of water are so hard to keep alive! Good luck - keep us posted...

 

[a4twenty]

sadly the time has come to end this. i still don't have any idea why he stopped eating two months ago but we're keeping an eye on the gigantea and other anemones where some of my BTA's are being housed. i hope they aren't going to cause any problems but the tank owner isn't concerned. ( he already had a couple others in the tank ). the clowns are back in the tank, hopefully their pee brains don't remember the beautiful anemone that was home, i always will






thanks for the help and kind words.

 

[delphinus]

Sorry to hear. I'm confused though, is there a second gigantea in the tank as well? But so far it is OK?

I was pretty bummed when I lost mine but it was the same story, just could not get it to feed adequately. Once I noticed it was losing biomass (getting smaller) I figured it was really just a matter of time, I kept trying but in the end it was futile.

 

[M.Maddox]

Often times you can force feed them until they rebound...I had to force feed one with a pipette for months, but it eventually came around. Was nice and healthy until hurricane Ike wiped out my systems.

I force fed with a mixture of selcon and minced seafoods, directly into the coelom.

 

[a4twenty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14170250#post14170250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by delphinus
is there a second gigantea in the tank as well? But so far it is OK?

sorry for the confusion, no the other gigantea is in a friends tank. he took some of my BTA's while i tried to get my gigantea to turn around.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14173653#post14173653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by M.Maddox
I force fed with a mixture of selcon and minced seafoods, directly into the coelom.

i tried, he spat it out