Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

No it's not the return lines - they come up over the top and are out of water once it starts draining.
No pics to show really - it just looks like a herbie overflow.
 
Setting up a new 120 gallon Perfecto tank, have a couple of questions.

1. What should the 'x' and 'y' dimensions be in the attached sketch?

2. With 1" bulkheads is there any benefit to using 1-1/4" standpipes?

TIA.

Herbie.jpg
[/IMG]
 
At four inches deep that would only be 2 gallons of water. Lets see if any of these question hekp us:
- How big is the sump
- How much room free in sump
- Was water still draining into the overflow
- Was there still water in the overflow
You may have to repeat your test, but be prepared to restart the pump :)
 
In all due respect we should probably move both of these discussions. They are Herbie designs being discussed on a thread with a different (although) related drain system.
 
Looking for some design ideas/threads for doing an external beananimal overflow on a 75 gallon glass tank if anyone has any links or design sketches...tanks!
 
afgun said:
You don't want the elbows too close to the bottom of the box as it could restrict flow. My 1 1/2" piping is about 1" from the bottom now, and that's about as close as I'd recommend taking it with that size pipe. When I added the screening extension I had to slightly re-tune my system.

I would not recommend gluing the pipe to the bulkhead; mine is a press-fit and seals pretty well. You are right about maintenance if you glue... bad idea.
Click to expand...


I guess I'm just concerned with press fitting over the long run. Any one else care to chime in?

Thanks
Gus
 
dakineacct said:
Setting up a new 120 gallon Perfecto tank, have a couple of questions.

1. What should the 'x' and 'y' dimensions be in the attached sketch?

2. With 1" bulkheads is there any benefit to using 1-1/4" standpipes?

TIA.

Herbie.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

The problem with your diagram is that you have no way to 'tune' the full siphon drain. It has to be throttled back so that it is slightly less than the full flow with the remaing flow draining from a second durso type drain that will convert to a full siphon if the water flows over the vent.

Your second drain could be setup this way and give you a good margin of emergency flow as the two 1" drains in full siphon will flow about 3000gph. The reason for the third standpipe is for redundency in case one or both of the others become clogged for some reason. It isn't critical for setting up the full siphon in one standpipe.

The full siphon drain is not so critical in it's height (your dimension X) It will reach max drain regardless of it's height. The third is usually at the height you have your second, so you should set it with an elbow durso style with the middle of the elbow set to the height you want your overflow box to run at as that's where it will balance. The higher your secondary pipe is to the top of the weir the less noisy the spillway will be when it drops into the overflow. Still, your 'Y' dimension should be less than the height of the weir, or teeth. The horizontal center of your elbow should be an inch or so below the weir, that will put your box water level the same and it will all run silently.

Tuned correctly there is a just a trickle of water that flows into the second standpipe. The original bean design used larger diameter pipes above the bulkheads, not sure why as it won't flow any more water. I think it was an effort to ensure it runs quietly as the velocity gets slowed down in the larger pipe, so less chance of vortexes or sucking noises. The original design also has the two standpipes very close in height difference, like less than half an inch. I did not find that necessary with the primary set to full siphon, but having the secondary higher does help force the primary to go into full siphon. It is said to help start the siphon flow by installing your tuning valve (ball or gate) towards the sump rather than up near the overflow. I have mine as the latter and it works fine.

Once you've played with how it works it all starts to make sense.

Although mine has only been running a few weeks there is no issue with the standpipes slip-fit into the bulkheads. They just sit in there, don't budge a bit, don't move, nada. They can be easily removed for periodic cleaning. Keep in mind ALL the water from the overflow box will then drain to the sump if you remove either standpipe.

EDIT: BTW, the vent at the top of your secondary pipe should be tied to one of your weir teeth at whatever level you consider your emergency max. When the water level covers the vent tube it then converts that second pipe to a full siphon as well, and it will empty your overflow box until it breaks siphon. That's how you'll know if there is a clog in your primary drain - the whole thing will start making a lot of noise and it will be flushing itself like a toilet, then filling up and flushing again, over and over.
 
Last edited:
How important is it to have shut off valves on each of the drain pipes? I'm also trying to figure out how either of the two drains becomes the primary drain if both of them are at the same centerline and both elbows facing down are identical.

Bear with me, this thread is awesome, just massive amounts to read.

Thanks
Gus
 
ram1500 said:
How important is it to have shut off valves on each of the drain pipes? I'm also trying to figure out how either of the two drains becomes the primary drain if both of them are at the same centerline and both elbows facing down are identical.

Bear with me, this thread is awesome, just massive amounts to read.

Thanks
Gus
Click to expand...

You are only required to have one valve and it needs to be on the full siphon line.

The other valves and unions are for convenience purposes only.
 
ram1500 said:
How important is it to have shut off valves on each of the drain pipes? I'm also trying to figure out how either of the two drains becomes the primary drain if both of them are at the same centerline and both elbows facing down are identical.

Bear with me, this thread is awesome, just massive amounts to read.

Thanks
Gus
Click to expand...

The full siphon drain is not vented, the secondary is. You throttle the flow in the full siphon so that 95% or more of the full flow is running thru the full siphon. This is why this method is so quiet. The secondary is vented with a tube that gets covered in the case the water rises to flood stage and then becomes a full siphon as well.

How do you break a siphon? With air, right? The water in the lower part of a tube/pipe cannot pull water from the top if there is air in the column of water.

The secondary pipe simply takes the excess water left over from what the full siphon line does not flow. This is what gives it the self tuning ability, because its flow can be any small percentage of the full system flow. Drains are quiet if there is very little water running in them. They are noisy if you try to run a lot of water AND air thru them. Then they gurgle and suck, and sound like a cross between a sink drain and a toilet - and it's constant, very annoying.

So your pipes should match the flow of your pump return. They can be scaled up or down to match. I used 1" bulkheads and thin wall pvc, thinking I might need that much flow capacity. The tuning valve is more than half way closed in the full siphon, it has zero air flowing thru it, is silent, putting about 450gph thru it.

If you install unions you can disassemble the drains to move the tank. I installed unions at stand level so the tank could be removed and set on the ground or where ever without the drain pipes getting in the way. It's only a 75gl. This isn't so important on a large tank you can't move anyway. Some use true-union ball or gate valves, again so it can be disassembled.

BTW, gate valves are easier to fine tune the flow. Ball valves are a bit sticky and when you try to move them a little they move a lot. But once you get it set you don't have to mess with them anyway.
 
Chris,

Thanks for the explanaio. Mkes sense but i think it will make more sense once i start putting it all together. Im in the middle of building a new hood. Next will be the plumbing.

I gusss wih putting the unions at tank level i wouldnt have to worry about gluing all the fittings into the bulkheads.

Thanks gus
 
I am interested in getting my 75G tank drilled and getting Beans design working on it. But I am wanting to do it with 1" pvc not 1.5". I can find everything in 1" pvc except for a sanitary tee, the only one I can find is on www.usplastics.com but I can't afford to pay $45 per tee. Would a standard 1" T work in its place? Or does anyone know where I can order a 1" sanitary Tee for less then $10?

Thanks,
Damien
 
Hi all,
I've looked through just about every page of this for pictures and can't find much about this question. It's not about the system, I understand that.

I'm trying to see how all of you are addressing painting the tanks if you have the system mounted externally? I'll have a 180 glass tank that I'm drilling myself. I'll have a slot through the tank for my weir pouring into a glass overflow box on the outside. If I paint my whole back of the tank black will the overflow box adhere to the paint with an RTV108 sealant? I want to hide all plumbing. The only other way I see covering it is attaching something black on the inside of the tank the same dimensions of the box. I'd have like a 1/4" thick acrylic that I'd silacone to the tank. That wouldnt be as ideal though.

Thanks for any advice!

Andrew
 
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