Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[CreativeGuy]

@Bean re: Crawl location,

Location in Crawl Space: As I do have to locate the filtration system within it, I hearing what you have to say (and appreciate your comments) and now are looking at how to relocate, even re-design sumps, and re-situate the sumps and filtration equipment that routinely needs maintenance to the transition point from the basement to the upper crawl space so that is more easily accessible and more maintenance friendly.

The usable foot print under the tank (if it were possible) is less than 20 square feet. The occupying square footage of the sumps over 100 square feet, not including room for access and servicing. Within the crawl space that is 300 square feet. The closed loop circulation pumps are located directly under the main display tanks in the crawl space for reasons of noise and service. The main pumps are located in the basement section, as are the skimmer, bio-filter, RODI unit, carbon filtration, electrical and controllers.

Open Channel Piping: If you suggest the open channel pipe to be 2" (pvc flex) from the tank can make the transition from the vertical 2" pipe just under the floor to 3" PCV rigid (2 @ 45s) to avoid cavitation. Just wish to verify that it would NOT be necessary to oversize the siphon pipes in the same manor?

There shall be four standpipe drains:
a) 1.5" full siphon
b) 1.5" full siphon
c) 2" open flow transitioning to 3" below the floor and horizontally
d) 1.5" emergency drain (you seem to suggest it would not be necessary due to the number of drains to the sump where there is over flooding protection?)

Close Loop Overflow Box: I understand creating a larger area deep weir (with a screen) and placing all the close loop discharges in it. I would like to keep it higher (4" down) and make it wider (25" instead of 18"), still about 100 square inches. Thinking to protect the water level in the tank, either a float switch or other monitoring device would be prudent to maintain appropriate water elevation in the recirculation overflow box. If there is room, installing tees on the top of all these standpipes with at least a fishline grid screen in the ends for further protection.

 

[BeanAnimal]

While I am a fan of increasing aggregate water volume with a large sump or (sumps) it still sounds like you are greatly over complicating your system design. You keep using the word "sumps".

You can only have (1) sump or low point in the system that everything drains into. If you try to drain water into two containers that are at the same level and not connected via a common pipe large enough to allow immediate level equalization between the two containers, then you will have an imbalance and a flood. For a system your size, a large rubbermaid sump would be sufficient and simplify many things.

The standpipes:
For the system to work as published, you would need all (4). The emergency standpipe is dry. It does not go to the sewer, it also drains to the sump. Is the emergency needed with a 2" open channel? That depends on many factors, but the 2" open channel should be able to handle the flow of both pumps easily.

Closed loops:
Lets get on the same page with regard to nomenclature: The suction side of a pump is an intake and the pressure side is a discharge. The box will have intakes in it and the discharges will be via OM or LOC-LINE back into the tank.

You don't need to protect the water level in the tank. It is set by the weir that feeds the sump and return pump and protected by the overflow. Water is added to the sump and pumped to the display tank until it overflows back into the sump. Adding or removing water from the system changes the SUMP level, not the display level.

The closed loops do not change the water level in the tank, they are closed loops. The reason the intake weir has to be lower is so that their surging motion does not interact with the weir that leads to the sump. Again, you can not ensure that weirs at the same level will receive the same ratio of flow at all times. For this reason we lower the closed loop weir and keep it fully flooded so that it does not interact with the sump weir.

Again, the box is flood and there is no need to monitor the water level. Put another way, of the box runs dry, then your tank water level is down at least 4" or whatever height you set that weir at. If that does happen, then your tank has a leak or the return pumps are not working and you have evaporated 4" of water out of the display. Not going to happen

 

[BeanAnimal]

While you are considering a redesign of the system, please think long and hard about simplification. I know it is fun to create fancy plans, but experience shows us that simple is better and more reliable.

Complicated plumbing and sump setups are hard to maintain and a nightmare for tank sitters. Keep it simple and it will be simple to maintain. Make it complex and maintenance becomes a complex chore instead of a simple task

 

[rad1687]

I have an embarrassingly stupid question as I have never plumbed a tank before. Do you glue the elbow into the bulkhead on oneside, and glue to pipe into the other? Or do you avoid gluing so that they can be removed easily in the event of a clog?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

If you weld both sides, you won't be able to replace or access the plumbing without cutting it apart. I usually get double-threaded bulkheads and weld a conversion fitting to the standpipe, then use teflon tape or paste to seal.

You can solvent weld your standpipe on the tank side, but then you would have to pull the bulkhead if you wanted to shorten/lengthen the standpipe.

You don't really need the seal on the tank side anyways. Water that gets by would just drain to the sump, and very slow if at all. You would probably want to account for this volume in the sump in the event of a long-term outage, but really if is was long enough to drain your overflow out you probably would have bigger issues.

 

[BeanAnimal]

We do not solvent weld the internal elbow in most cases. It runs mostly below the water level and gets gummed up fairly quickly (and prevents air from entering the siphon). It have rarely had to remove the elbows, but it has happened when a snail get wedged. It just makes it easier to get my hands in there

For external boxes with plumbed through the bottom, if you solvent weld then you can't adjust height.

The external fittings must be solvent welded. I do not prefer threaded fittings, as they are much more restrictive. Bulkheads and fittings are cheap, so if I have to CUT to change plumbing, I cut

 

[scott26]

I have had snails clog up my siphon drain at least 4 times now the Bean open kicks in just fine but it continuously flushes the system until I remove the snails. To fix this I used some egg crate and jammed it into the siphon and open elbows.

 

[ram1500]

One thing I haven't been able to find in the thread is how and where to position the tube for the open channel. I'm sure this has to be a critical step? I'm guessing it needs to be attached to something and somewhere close to the water line in the overflow box?

Also, there's a machine shop where I work and one of the guys drilled and tapped the cap for the JG fitting I was asking about a few posts above. I don't think it took him more than 5 min and he was back in my office.

Thanks
Gus

 

[torino06]

do i need to make my exterior box taller?

do i need to make my exterior box taller?

i had another thread going but wanted to see what everyone thought because i know this one gets more visits. anyways, below you can see my potential setup. i thought about cutting my adapter a bit to lower everything but in the picture below you can see if i have a 5.5" tall exterior box the waterline will be above the holes. do i need to make it taller? also, i have the adapter because im using threaded bulkheads. thanks in advance!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would use SLIP bulkheads. The standpipe weirs need to be even with or lower than the intake holes from the display. You will need some vertical adjustment so a slightly deeper box and SLIP bulkheads will help so that you can adjust the height. Threaded bulkheads are more restrictive, and serve no advantage.

 

[torino06]

I would use SLIP bulkheads. The standpipe weirs need to be even with or lower than the intake holes from the display. You will need some vertical adjustment so a slightly deeper box and SLIP bulkheads will help so that you can adjust the height. Threaded bulkheads are more restrictive, and serve no advantage.

i just read something else and saw you had posted use slip as BH's are cheap and u can cut them. i said to myself, he'll probably be saying the same thing to me... i am not sure i am quite understanding what you are saying about the standpipes. the inlet of the 90 needs to be even or lower than the intake holes or the center line of the 90 and tee needs to be lower? thanks

 

[ISMANU]

Bean... Thanks for the design I cant wait to put it to work in my 250 reef setup.

On the down side I had already ordered my tank before finding this post:headwally:

on the upside I ordered enough holes in the overflow to make it work:spin3:

Again great design and thanks for sharing it

 

[BeanAnimal]

i just read something else and saw you had posted use slip as BH's are cheap and u can cut them. i said to myself, he'll probably be saying the same thing to me... i am not sure i am quite understanding what you are saying about the standpipes. the inlet of the 90 needs to be even or lower than the intake holes or the center line of the 90 and tee needs to be lower? thanks

Let me put it this way, you want to room to be able to play with the water level height.

The variables (among a many) are the box sizes (internal and external) and the hole sizes from internal to external as the relate to the total flow rate through them.

If the level is too high and the flow too low, then the weir box will build surface scum. If the level is too low, the box may make noise as water dumps from the internal to the external.

In other words, you want some room to play with standpipe heights as the "perfect" spot will vary depending on box volume, hole size and flow.

 

[bennyhanna1]

^that being said, would i probably be better to air on the side drilling the bulkhead holes a little higher, that way if need be one could just add small PVC extender on to the elbow to adjust the water level (referring to an internal box)

I just started purchasing some of the plumbing parts this past week, I'm doing 3/4 inch plumbing, and it's been a little hard to find certain parts like a 3/4" sanitary tee, or a 1" x 3/4" slip x slip street elbow, but I can get creative or find substitute parts

One quick question, is there a big advantage to having ball valves on all 3 stand pipes? I had a hard time finding the correct ball valve, so i bought 3 when i finally found them, and was contemplating just using one on the siphon standpipe and maybe use the other 2 on the return plumbing...

 

[bennyhanna1]

dbl post

 

[BeanAnimal]

^that being said, would i probably be better to air on the side drilling the bulkhead holes a little higher, that way if need be one could just add small PVC extender on to the elbow to adjust the water level (referring to an internal box)

I am not sure I follow, or rather not sure you understand the design.

There are no bulkheads or fittings between the internal and external box (*see note 1). The internal box sets the height of the water in the display tank and it feeds the external box via the holes drilled in the tank wall.

The standpipe configuration in the external box sets the water level in the external box and possibly the internal box (*see note 2).

NOTE 1: bulkheads could be used to attach the external box to the tank wall (with proper gasketing) as opposed to adhering the external box directly to the tank. Even in this case, there are no elbow or other fittings (other than the bulkhead) used between the internal and external box.

NOTE 2: The water height in the external box sets the water height in the internal box unless the standpipes in the external box are set low enough to allow the water to lovel to be below the holes in the tank wall. In this case, you will likely get a noisy waterfall effect.

I just started purchasing some of the plumbing parts this past week, I'm doing 3/4 inch plumbing, and it's been a little hard to find certain parts like a 3/4" sanitary tee, or a 1" x 3/4" slip x slip street elbow, but I can get creative or find substitute parts

I am not sure what size tank you are setting up or what your flow rate is going to be, but 3/4" plumbing is not advised in most cases. It will be fine for the siphon, but barely (if at all) workable for the open channel and a liability for the emergency.

One quick question, is there a big advantage to having ball valves on all 3 stand pipes? I had a hard time finding the correct ball valve, so i bought 3 when i finally found them, and was contemplating just using one on the siphon standpipe and maybe use the other 2 on the return plumbing...

No, valves on the other standpipes are for convenience and allow the standpipes to be used in any configuration or turned off for maintenance, etc.

 

[bennyhanna1]

^ i think we were just on different wavelengths, I figured out my question, thanks for the reply though!

I'll be setting up a 40 gallon tank, is 3/4" plumbing still not advisable in this scenario? I had gotten some advice that 3/4" would be ample for such a small tank, but being that this is your design, and with your experience, I'll give you the final word!

Thanks a ton BeAn!

 

[ram1500]

One thing I haven't been able to find in the thread is how and where to position the tube for the open channel. I'm sure this has to be a critical step? I'm guessing it needs to be attached to something and somewhere close to the water line in the overflow box?

Also, there's a machine shop where I work and one of the guys drilled and tapped the cap for the JG fitting I was asking about a few posts above. I don't think it took him more than 5 min and he was back in my office.

Thanks
Gus

bump...

 

[ram1500]

One thing I haven't been able to find in the thread is how and where to position the tube for the open channel. I'm sure this has to be a critical step? I'm guessing it needs to be attached to something and somewhere close to the water line in the overflow box?

Also, there's a machine shop where I work and one of the guys drilled and tapped the cap for the JG fitting I was asking about a few posts above. I don't think it took him more than 5 min and he was back in my office.

Thanks
Gus

bump...

 

[BeanAnimal]

No need to bump the thread, it stays pretty close to the top and most questions get answered in a fair amount of time.

You can attach the open end of the airline with a zip tie around the standpipe next to it (the emergency) or with a custom fabricated piece of PVC, acrylic or whatever. Mine is attached to a piece of eggcrate that keeps snails away from the intakes.