Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

jdcook72 said:
Why wouldn't the 45 fit, space issue or getting everything to align? Since it's only a 12" horizontal run, I would recomend using a section of flexable PVC and have it angle down to the veriticle piece after the 90 to reduce the horizontal length.
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The problem was getting the ball valve in there (in retrospect should have put it up high out of the sump area) so I have to have PVC instead of flex tubing in the sump. I had read on this thread to put it closer to the sump, so I did. The run allowed me to fix the angle better. The 90 degrees is right above my ball valve, then it is the length of the ball valve and about 6" of pipe that ends 1" into the water.
 
gone_fishing said:
The problem was getting the ball valve in there (in retrospect should have put it up high out of the sump area) so I have to have PVC instead of flex tubing in the sump. I had read on this thread to put it closer to the sump, so I did. The run allowed me to fix the angle better. The 90 degrees is right above my ball valve, then it is the length of the ball valve and about 6" of pipe that ends 1" into the water.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't understand why you couldn't use flexible PVC in the sump. There is Flexible PVC that you can glue the same was as rigid pipe to PVC fittings. Or, you could use barbed adapters with just regular clear tubing couldn't you?
 
jdcook72 said:
Sorry, I don't understand why you couldn't use flexible PVC in the sump. There is Flexible PVC that you can glue the same was as rigid pipe to PVC fittings. Or, you could use barbed adapters with just regular clear tubing couldn't you?
Click to expand...

Right, but that doesn't really bend/flex either. I have flex coming down into the sump, I just ran into the problem with the ball valve attachment and ending the pipe at the right level. I'll try to get a picture so you can advise me what to do. This was my first ever plumbing job! Thanks for all the help so far.
 
gone_fishing said:
How would I move the open channel higher, do you mean in the sump?
no in the box itself can you spin the 90? try throwing another pump in the sump and turning it on with the main pump and see if it starts this way. I think it will most people use 1' bulkheads with a lot of flow. you have 1.5 which is harder to start a siphon. think if you are doing a water change and want to siphon water use a 3/8 line then try the 1.5" line its much easier to start with a smaller line. and without a lot of flow the siphon won't start.
Click to expand...
 
dunk373 said:
gone_fishing said:
How would I move the open channel higher, do you mean in the sump?
no in the box itself can you spin the 90? try throwing another pump in the sump and turning it on with the main pump and see if it starts this way. I think it will most people use 1' bulkheads with a lot of flow. you have 1.5 which is harder to start a siphon. think if you are doing a water change and want to siphon water use a 3/8 line then try the 1.5" line its much easier to start with a smaller line. and without a lot of flow the siphon won't start.
Click to expand...

I think you are correct, my pump is a waterblaster 3000, only 750gph and I have it going about 6' up to the tank (42" sand, 26" tank, plus a few inches). I played with it a bit and mimicked a larger pump, it purges the air within seconds. My pump can't push enough through so the air is stuck there. I also have the ball valve almost completely closed.

I've searched the thread a bunch of different ways but can't find the post with the recommended pump sizes, I read the entire thread when I was building it and didn't mark that, of course. Anyone know what post number it was or just a general idea, if I recall with 1.5" plumbing I should be okay at 1400gph upwards, correct?

Thanks again!
Sheri
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Just in case anyone is interested, I upgraded my pump to a mag 18 from a 9.5. The siphon starts up in 1.5 minutes. Curious if this length of start up time is an issue? As far as I can tell, its not.

The gate valve is still slightly more than half closed. Hence the reason for slow start up. With the valve all the way open, it starts up almost immediately. Thinking of trying a .75" gate valve, mostly or all the way open to improve start up. Thoughts ?
 
drock59 said:
Just in case anyone is interested, I upgraded my pump to a mag 18 from a 9.5. The siphon starts up in 1.5 minutes. Curious if this length of start up time is an issue? As far as I can tell, its not.

The gate valve is still slightly more than half closed. Hence the reason for slow start up. With the valve all the way open, it starts up almost immediately. Thinking of trying a .75" gate valve, mostly or all the way open to improve start up. Thoughts ?
Click to expand...

It shouldn't make any difference. Think of it this way, you have to adjust the gate valve to have the right resistance to flow in the pipe so that your drain flows at the right amount. Whether that is a larger valve closed more or a smaller valve closed less, it still is providing the same flow resistance.
 
a smaller valve will give you more precision but the valve in there will work. think of it this way the larger the pipe the longer and harder a siphon starts. A lot seemed confused with the flow of beans setup it is a 100% water siphon. not like the traditional mixed air water. so it seems most are oversizing the plumbing thinking its not enough. the more the valve is open the faster it will start if its too much of a pain then replace the pipe with a size smaller.
 
jwilson, I am not worried about the water in the pipe, I am worried about getting the air out to start the siphon, as I have a bit of a horizontal run( 7ft slightly downhill). Forgive my ignorance on the dynamics of this stuff, but if have a gate valve(1") 2/3 closed and another one (3/4") nearly all the way open, the one that is nearly open will start a siphon faster. Correct? I already made sure the 3/4" fittings would handle the flow.

Its probable I am over thinking this. 1.5 minutes to start the siphon is fine, but it would make me feel more comfortable if it started sooner.

Regardless it works and I love lack of noise. Exactly what I was looking for. Now to sort out the details. :smokin:
 
I may have this wrong, but I think.

The air in the starting siphon pipe has to be removed. If it has to go out the bottom it must be mixed with flowing water and purged - this can take a while. Now if the air has a clean path out the top then the pipe can fill and push the air out the top. I think this is why the gate at the bottom works better. Less air is trying to fight the water through the restricted pipe. If the siphon line does not have a U at the top it maybe possible to purge the air even easier - can anyone with unglued pipes try this? Flow will also make a difference. You need to fill the pipe (while some is draining out the botom), and the fact that the air needs to be removed and starting a siphon can take a while. In fact a slow flow might never form a siphon if the pipe is large enough to flow the water as in the more typical drains.
 
The more water through the faster it starts. With a 1" pipe 1000gph return will start it in say 1min with 2000gph it'll start in 10 seconds. If its a 2" pipe and 1000gph it'll never start. But the higher the flow the faster it starts. But of course to a point with too much flow and a small pipe it may not flow enough. So it is very important to size the siphon pipe to the return pump. The chart will help with this. There are a lot of variables to consider.
 
Larger pipe and lower velocity flow will be slower (or not capable) of clearing the trapped air. Smaller pipe with higher velocity flow will clear the trapped air faster. However, these facts are somehwat moot if the design is followed, as the system works well over a very wide range of flows.

You don't have to "size the siphon pipe to the return pump" as long as you follow the design plans and run anywhere form a few hundred GPH up to 3000 or so GPH. The control valve is what is used to "size" the pipe. Above 3000 or so GFPH, the pipe needs to be larger to accomodate the higher flow, but the design (or physics) do not otherwise change. The "chart" and equations are for those who wish to understand how and why the the system works and/or apply the principles to other systems. The information is not needed to setup the system as published. If the plans are followed, there are no variables or calculations to worry about. If the plans are NOT followed, then all bets are off.

This design (as published) is a one-size-fits-all and works as such if the plans are followed. Part of the overall premise was to publish a design that DOES NOT require the builder to calculate or guess at pipe sizes or configurations.

The problem here is that folks are trying to adapt the design principle to situations in which the physics do not allow and/or the system was not designed to accomodate (horizontal runs for example). In those cases, the design may or may not work, depending pipe sizes, slopes, and other variables. While I (and others here) try to help with those adaptations, they are somewhat outside the scope of the published design and each case is different.

:)
 
Hey bean I want to thank you for posting this information. Its people like you that share great ideas for others to Benofit. Also thanks for following this thread for years and continuing to help all. I am going to use your setup also, just need to get the guts to drill.
 
I think that the solution to a horizontal run may be to have a negative slope of at least 1-1/2 pipe diameters or even an inverted P trap at the end of the horizontal run before the last downturn. Either should force the pipe to fill with water and purge the air in the direction of flow.

Edit: By negative slope I mean orient the pipe so the water has to flow uphill. This is actually a positive slope but since it's opposite of a normal drain I referred to it as negative. This would definitely not be a good idea on a "Durso" drain but it should help a lot to start the siphon depending on the length of the horizontal run compared to the vertical.
 
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