Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[rlinusc]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn't have any bubbles, but I don't know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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[rlinusc]

No, like he said the valve is what will actually set the water level. The open channel & your pass through holes is what will determine where u want to set the water level. Now that u have a idea of where the water level needs to be relative to the open channel for it to be quiet it should be pretty easy. Now all u need to do is determine how high the water level needs to be on the pass thru bulkheads for that to be quiet. Then set the height of the open channel at that height. Personally, I would set height of the open channel to where the water level will be at about the 1/2 way point on the bulkheads & u should be fine. So being u have determined where the water level needs to be on the open channel for it to be quiet, set that point of the open channel standpipe about 1/2 way on the pass thru bulkheads.

So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn't all that quiet


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[Sisterlimonpot]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn’t have any bubbles, but I don’t know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn’t all that quiet


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It's hard to say, but if you have bubbles coming out of your open than the water flow is too much, it should only trickle over the open.

What LSU suggested (And I would follow his advice) is to adjust your full siphon to set the water level to be right in the middle of your pass through bulk heads, then after that is set, you set the height of your open right at that level so that water only trickles over the open.

Not sure what you were referencing when you stated that

It [pipe] goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches

. If you're talking about the open pipe, depth doesn't matter because you're not trying to create a siphon, you're essentially just allowing water to coat the inside of the pipe as it drains down, if the water flows too fast you will hear it and if it's fast enough to trap air then you'll never achieve silence.

If the full siphon is the pipe that terminates 1-1 1/2 below the surface then you will have to address that. there isn't enough height in your overflow to allow the full siphon to over come that excess pressure to become a full siphon before the open starts taking on too much water. And if that's happening, you wont achieve full silence.

The goal is to allow the full siphon to establish itself all the while the little bit of water flows through the open to balance out the system.

If you can snap some pictures and post them up we may be able to more accurately guide you through adjustment.

 

[rlinusc]

I think I am not an,e to purge the air before the open takes on too much water, I will shoot a video when I can. One problem too is that the elbo for my open is essentially turned to the side and is in the way of the bulkhead- unavoidable as the box isn't deep enough.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Oh, so it may be the water sloshing around the down turned elbow that's the culprit. I personally was able to achieve silence by allowing to pass through bulkheads to be completely under water. From what I gather, my bulkheads sit lower than most ghost weirs. When I designed mine I was under the impression that they were supposed to be submerged, so I cut them in lower.

(Ignore all the writing, I use the overflow box as a dry erase board... hehe)

But you can see that my overflow box is roughly 60% full with the bulkheads completely submerged. not sure that is viable for your set up.

 

[Lsufan]

If u don’t have any bubbles exiting the syphon pipe then it more then likely has purged the air. The noise almost has to be eighther the open channel taking to much water or it’s the water entering the exterior box thru the pass thru holes. U need to figure out which one of the two it is, or it may be both.

To test it all u should need to do is turn the 90 on the open channel facing up so it isn’t taking any water at all. If that makes it quiet then the open channel is taking to much watet. If it’s still loud then it is the water coming thru the pass thru holes, so u would need to raise the water level in the exterior box. To do that u would need to slightly close the valve on the syphon to raise the water level. Usually the water level needs to be atleast 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up the pass thru holes for it to be quiet. If your holes are drilled lower then normal then u may find u can even have the pass thru holes submerged. Once u determine where the water level needs to be then u can set the hieght of the open channel so it is only taking a trickle of water.

Sisterlimonpots photo is a good example of where the water level needs to be on the open channel, which is the pipe on the left. It can be a little less but any more then where it is in the picture & the open channel will be loud. So if u find the water level in the box has to be 3/4 of the way up the pass thru holes, then set that section of the open channel 3/4 of the way up on the pass thru holes

 

[rlinusc]

It is now muc much quieter after I raised the open channel..
Hoping it stays this quiet.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Once the kinks are worked out then all you have to do is forget about it.

 

[rlinusc]

Ugh so it is not quiet at all-


So here are the changes I made- raised open channel up so that hopefully at the point of "œtrickle" it is also close to bulkheads being submerged and quieter, took siphon and have it just breaking the sump surface water, had it such that it was a Tony bit short then added an elbow to it in order to submerge. Still loud and I suspect the siphon has not purged the air and the open still has way too much water going down it.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Is the elbow at the end of the siphon? if so that can cause a lot of the problem, if you cut too much, add a strait coupler to it to achieve the proper depth under the water. Did you determine where the noise is originating from? If you can provide some pictures we may be able to see an obvious problem that you're overlooking.

 

[rlinusc]

Here are some pics

The first picture is to show the water line, it looks like the emergency and open are same height but the elbow is under water.
The top pipe is the siphon- and the bottom pipe is the open channel as you can tell by he bubbles too much water is coming down the open channel

This picture I switched put the elbow at end of siphon for a straight piece

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[Djbeasley05]

Here are some pics

The first picture is to show the water line, it looks like the emergency and open are same height but the elbow is under water.
The top pipe is the siphon- and the bottom pipe is the open channel as you can tell by he bubbles too much water is coming down the open channel

This picture I switched put the elbow at end of siphon for a straight piece

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How far into the water is your siphon line going? Start off with the siphon ending above the water level in the sump and see if it purged all the air. If it does, that means your siphon was going too far into the sump water line.


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[rlinusc]

Right now it is about 1/2 inch in, i am confused don't you want the air purged from siphon? What am I looking for when I have the siphon above the water?


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[Sisterlimonpot]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn't have any bubbles, but I don't know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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Right now it is about 1/2 inch in, i am confused don't you want the air purged from siphon? What am I looking for when I have the siphon above the water?


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Thanks, the pictures help a lot.

Before you take action on anything I say, I would wait for LSU to chime in. I was under the impression that when using a ghost weir, the open channel has to have a downward turned "U" or two 90 degree elbows (turned down) for that particular over flow to work properly. The setup that you have is for the more traditional internal weir. From my research the problems that you're experiencing is the same as most when the ghost weir became popular. The folks that have a better understanding of fluid dynamics came up with the slight changes that LSU has been suggesting in the last few pages of this thread. Again, before doing anything, wait for validation from one of those guys to concur.

Another concern I see is the way you have your pipes entering the sump at a 45 degree angle. All the pictures that I see have them entering the sump perpendicular to the water line. It made sense to me that if the waters journey in the pipe is sloped at a 45 degree angle then it wont gain the speed and momentum to properly siphon like it would if you limited the amount of horizontal and 45 degree runs. From the picture it looks like there's plenty of room for improvement.

And finally, the elbow that you have at the end of the siphon line need to be changed to a straight coupler. But if you're going to make changes to the plumbing, you can fix that then.

 

[Lsufan]

It is hard to tell in the pictures because u can’t see the entire standpipe inside the box, but it looks like u have way to much water entering the open channel. If that is a tee with a 90 attached for the open channel it looks like the entire tee is submerged which is way to much water. Over half of the tee should not be submerged. . Sisterlimonpots post above where he posted the picture should give u a idea where the water level needs to be relative to the open channel. It should be right at to 1/4” above the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attaches to it. The smaller the plumbing the less amount of water the open channel can take. With 1” plumbing the open channel can only take a very small amount of water. 1.5” plumbing can take twice as much as 1” & still remain silent.

Being u still aren’t sure where the noise is coming from I would do what I said in my last post so u can determine where the noise is coming from. It would be pretty easy to test out & then u would know what u need to do instead of guessing & going back & forth. Raise the open channel so it isn’t taking any water at all. If u have a 90 attached to a tee then just turn the 90 facing up. If it’s still under water attach a piece of pipe to extend it to where it is out of the water. That will tell u if it’s the open channel that is making the noise, which I suspect it is. To me it looks like u need to raise the open channel.

Doing that test will also let u play with the water level inside of the overflow box so u can determine where the water level needs to be. If it’s to low the water will be loud coming thru the pass thru bulkheads, but u don’t want it a lot higher then it needs to be eighther. Once u figure out where the water level needs to be inside of the box for the water entering the box to be quiet, set the open channel to that height. So wherever u find the water level needs to be set the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attached to it at the height u want the water level.

If u don’t have any bubbles exiting the syphon then it is purging its air. The water exiting the pipe would look like the water that exits the open channel. I would keep the syphon only submerged 1/2”. There really isn’t a point in it being submerged any further & the further it’s submerged the harder it will be to purge the air. What Dj Beasley was saying is to raise the syphon to where it is above the water line just to test it out to see if it would then purge the air. I just don’t think that’s your issue. U would have bubbles exiting the pipe & the water level would be inconsistent. That doesn’t sound like your issues. Also, I wouldn’t submerge the open channel but 1/2” into the sump also. If u submerge it to far & the syphon & emergency gets backed up & u need the open channel to syphon, the last thing u want is for it to have trouble purging the air because u have it submerged to far into the sump

 

[rlinusc]

Thank you, I will raise the open channel even more, do you also think I should change the orientation of the open channel? (Instead of a t and 90 elbow, I should use 2 elbows? Not sure how that looks exactly, and a little worried it will fit in the box, should I just use the t with the elbow facing up?

As for both. The siphon and open, do you think I should use a 90 and then vertical in, or stick with 45? I thought the single 45 angle was better than 2 90 elbows, but losing a vertical drop might matter?


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[rlinusc]

Oh and a few points of clarification.

My open channel has the elbow currently facing down (think of a faucet).

I also did not provide one key piece of information.

The drains are 1" pVC, but the open channel inside the box, is actually 3/4" pipe, that is because i was worried about space inside the box and used a 3/4 " coupler (which fits the 1" hole) and then attached the 3/4" pipe, elbow and T-. sounds like i may want to increase the open channel standpipe to a full 1"inside the overflow box.

Is that correct?

and just to double check so i don't do this again. It is better to have a vertical drop that uses 2 elbows then a slanted drop using only 1 elbow, is that correct?

 

[Lsufan]

Ok, as far as how u have drains designed I think u are fine. Inside the over box I would keep the tee with the 90 facing down on the open channel. The only thing I would change is use a 1” street 90 to go into the tee instead of reducing down to 3/4”. As far as the pipes going to the sump, I would also leave them the same as far as I can tell. It is better to use a 45 & run the pipe on a 45 degree angle to get to where u need to go, then another 45 to get back square with the sump. That is better then using two 90’s. U are essentially using 2- 45’s instead of 2- 90’s, which using the 45’s are better.

The only reason I said to turn the 90 facing up is just to test everything out. Basically set the open channel to where it isn’t taking any water at all. If it quiets down then u know the noise is coming from the open channel. With the open channel not taking any water u can also adjust the water level inside the overflow so u can find the sweet spot as far as where u need to run the water level. That’s easier to do if the open channel isn’t taking any water. Once u determine the water level u can set the height of the open channel. To me that would be easier then keeping adjusting everything & going back & forth on the adjustments

 

[pigr8]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here on RC but i've been reading for a while silently

I wanted to share my project and maybe have some advice about the setup since i have time to change if i made errors or missunderstood how a bean animal works.

Here are the render on how it should be (pardon my poor skills)

(here is a link for the front view, don't want to post images that are not really relevant i think https://i.imgur.com/xyyoZNs.png)

So, the 4 red marked pvc joints are going to be on the other side of the glass, so everything will be dropped down few cm (sorry, metric system here in Italy).

- the third pipe is going to be the syphon and will be as close as possible to the bottom of the box.. that is what i understood, to avoid that something could go sucked in (it will anyway, i know)

- the second pipe is the open channel (it's not drilled on top for the vent, this is still a mockup), the vertical pipe marked with the arrow can be adjusted in height as needed.

- the fourth pipe is the emergency, has to be cut down to size, nothing is glued for now.

- the first is the return pipe from the pump, has nothing to do with the rest.

The box is going to be mounted on a rimless tank and siliconed flush on top, the box is not a full coast to coast design since i need extra space on the side, the total height is 18 cm (7") and it's 42 cm wide (16").. the weir is 4cm from the top oh the glass (1.5") and as i understand the waterfall in the box should not be more than 1" (2.5 cm), i think it should be ok like this.

So how should i proceed now? Drill the holes on the bottom of the box and silicone all in place, then fix the syphon in place as it is now and use the valve to adjust the flow right? The height of the emergency should be cut 1" (2.5cm) from the top of the glass, that is not a big deal, but how can i set the height of the open channel?

The valve on the syphon is what is going to set the water height in the box? so the open channel could be cut in relation of this height, or not? I saw some drawnings here way back 100 pages, but some say to leave them on the same height.

Thanks and sorry for my english.

 

[Lsufan]

Sounds like u pretty much have it figured out. With a exterior box it’s usually best to have the open channel higher then the syphon. It’s interior boxes where it doesn’t matter as much & u can drill the holes at the same hieght.

The valve is what sets the water level inside of the box, but the open channel is what determines where the water level is set. U only want a trickle of water going down the open channel. So determine where u want the water level & set the open channel at that hieght, then use the valve on the syphon to get it to that water level.

In your picture where the top blue line is relative to the open channel would be to much water going down the open channel & it would be loud. About the highest u will want the water level on the open channel is about where the bottom blue line is on your syphon standpipe. Depending on the size of the plumbing it may even have to be a little lower then that. So determine where u want the water level inside of the box & set that point of the open channel at that height. It looks like 1” plumbing so I would shoot for about 1/4” lower then where the blue line is on your syphon standpipe. A 1” open channel can’t take much water & be silent.

It sounds like the tank is actually notched for a weir then. If that is the case I would just set that section of the open channel about 1/2” to 1” lower then the weir, then set the emergency 1” above that. To me it’s better to start a little higher then lower. U can always just cut a little off the pipe if u find u need to lower it a little bit. If u need to raise it u have to cut a new piece of pipe. Don’t glue any of the plumbing inside of the overflow box. It’s not needed & u don’t want it set in place to where u can’t make adjustments or reve the pipes for cleaning or whatever reason.