Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[sleepydoc]

Getting a bit off topic for this thread, but the difference between a true Herbie and a Bean is the open channel 'durso' standpipe. A dry Herbie is notoriously difficult to keep tuned and many people end up running a 'wet Herbie' with a trickle down the 2nd standpipe, essentially a bean without the safety of the dry emergency.

The bean is an evolution & an improvement on this. Since a single event can cause a flood with a 'wet Herbie,' the dry emergency and occludable air tubing in the OC add 2 more means of backup protection to make it fails safe. (At least much more so, since you need 1 or 2 more events to cause a flood.)

 

[sinnick]

been using beanamimal setup for a while. It's definitely my favorite so far.

 

[uncleof6]

Getting a bit off topic for this thread, but the difference between a true Herbie and a Bean is the open channel 'durso' standpipe. A dry Herbie is notoriously difficult to keep tuned and many people end up running a 'wet Herbie' with a trickle down the 2nd standpipe, essentially a bean without the safety of the dry emergency.

The bean is an evolution & an improvement on this. Since a single event can cause a flood with a 'wet Herbie,' the dry emergency and occludable air tubing in the OC add 2 more means of backup protection to make it fails safe. (At least much more so, since you need 1 or 2 more events to cause a flood.)

Yes off topic, because discussion of the Herbie is off topic. However, discussion of the BA is on topic. However, every time the two are mentioned in the same sentence, the confusion is progressed to new levels. The two systems are unrelated, and the more you try to compare them, the more you add to the confusion.

03/25/2004: Herbie started his thread describing a "new plumbing method." After reading the quite lengthy post, you come away with the "method" consisting of an open top siphon standpipe, and "VERY IMPORTANT SAFETY FEATURE!!!!!" describing a dry emergency. "It should be empty at all times unless something is out of wack (sic) with the main return (sic) line!"

Fast forward to 2/3/2008: Bean publishes his design, that included specific design criteria.

1) Dead Silent
2) Set and Forget
3) Limit Bubbles in Sump
4) Failsafe to Prevent Floods
5) Easy to Clean if Needed

His solution included a siphon, an open channel, and a dry emergency. He was insistent that all three pipes must be used, to insure the safety of the system. The open channel provides the "set and forget."

Fast forward to some point in time later, one person decided they wanted the "Herbie" to be "set and forget," just like BA's system. Because this one person did not get the safety memo, or simply decided a flood could never happen to them, others decided to follow suit. Before too long, somehow it morphed into the "Herbie" is supposed to have a wet secondary, and the only difference between the "Herbie" and BA's system is the dry emergency. This notion still persists, as well as the misconception that a "herbie" with a wet secondary is a BA - 1, which it is not. It is nothing more than a Herbie with a wet secondary, and a violation of the basic safety guidelines. Some have tried to make the wet secondary with the herbie more like BA's open channel, but that is really just a waste of time if you stop and think about it, and it is still nothing more than a Herbie with a wet secondary.

What needs to happen, rather than the palliative comparisons, is to correct the misinformation, and keep the two systems as the seperate entities that they are.

 

[adamwheel]

I'm sure it's been asked but the volume of pages is daunting at this point. Apologies in advance.

I have this overflow system on my DIY 178 gal and it works flawlessly.

I'm designing a separate tank that will be outside of the stand and want to do a full siphon from it to the sump. An Eheim 1262 within the sump will serve as return to that aquarium.

Questions:

1. Do I need a significant vertical drop to get the siphon to kick in? Or, as long as I have no horizontal runs, will I be fine (horizontal run is ~3.5ft and total vertical drop is ~1ft as currently designed)?

2. That pump is rated at 900 gal/hr at zero head. If I dial the pump back a little (600-700 gph) with a gate valve, will 3/4" drains handle the flow?

Thanks in advance. This thread has been invaluable in my builds.

Adam

 

[Ironwood]

Bean animal silent system

Bean animal silent system

Hi, I'm new to the forum and reefing for that matter. I have a 72 gallon bow front tank that I drilled, added a 3/4 inside weir and external overflow with the Bean Animal system set up in it. The problem I'm having is that it is not silent. The noise is coming from the ball value. It seems like air is going through the value and making noise. Has anyone had this problem?
I have tried adjusting the ball value and return pump but nothing seems to work. Thanks

 

[adova]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and reefing for that matter. I have a 72 gallon bow front tank that I drilled, added a 3/4 inside weir and external overflow with the Bean Animal system set up in it. The problem I'm having is that it is not silent. The noise is coming from the ball value. It seems like air is going through the value and making noise. Has anyone had this problem?
I have tried adjusting the ball value and return pump but nothing seems to work. Thanks

Is the ball valve on the siphon drain? If so, look up a few posts - same thing happened to me. Turned out to be bubbles getting caught in the drain line.

 

[rickztahone]

quick question, when building an exterior bean animal setup, do you space the bulkhead holes 1 hole diameter (1.5" in this case) 1.5" apart, or bulkhead flange to flange edge apart?

 

[sleepydoc]

quick question, when building an exterior bean animal setup, do you space the bulkhead holes 1 hole diameter (1.5" in this case) 1.5" apart, or bulkhead flange to flange edge apart?

Spacing is 1 diameter between glass/hole edges, or 2 diameters center to center.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23235315&postcount=7

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would put at least a few inches between the flanges. Depends on how you plan to do your pluming. Lets say you have the E in the middle, S and OC on the outside, and you turn both the OC and S so that the double-elbow (or p-trap) are facing towards the E. Well you need enough room to be able to extend the siphon down to close to the bottom of the box, so you need the BHs far enough apart to account for this pipe extension not interfering with the flange

If you turn both OC and S out, then you just need a minimum space between the BH flanges. Most advice is 2 hole diameters between holes (that means, from edge of hole to edge of hole) but look at any RR tank with a drain & return at the bottom right next to each other with 0.5" between the flanges, and those are "OK"...the more space, the better. Also means your ext box is a bit bigger, which is always better...

ninja'd by sleepydoc. I knew the "2" factor was in there somewhere. Thanks for the link doc

 

[rickztahone]

Spacing is 1 diameter between glass/hole edges, or 2 diameters center to center.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23235315&postcount=7

I would put at least a few inches between the flanges. Depends on how you plan to do your pluming. Lets say you have the E in the middle, S and OC on the outside, and you turn both the OC and S so that the double-elbow (or p-trap) are facing towards the E. Well you need enough room to be able to extend the siphon down to close to the bottom of the box, so you need the BHs far enough apart to account for this pipe extension not interfering with the flange

If you turn both OC and S out, then you just need a minimum space between the BH flanges. Most advice is 2 hole diameters between holes (that means, from edge of hole to edge of hole) but look at any RR tank with a drain & return at the bottom right next to each other with 0.5" between the flanges, and those are "OK"...the more space, the better. Also means your ext box is a bit bigger, which is always better...

ninja'd by sleepydoc. I knew the "2" factor was in there somewhere. Thanks for the link doc

Considering it is hole diameter distance, this means I can make a smaller outer box which is great because I was already at 20"+

Can the draining line bulkhead's in the outer box all be 1" and simply use an adapter on the OC and Emergency to make bigger 1.5"? Having 1" bulkheads would mean only 1" spacing in between. I will probably play it safe and go 2" each though

 

[sleepydoc]

I'm sure it's been asked but the volume of pages is daunting at this point. Apologies in advance.

I have this overflow system on my DIY 178 gal and it works flawlessly.

I'm designing a separate tank that will be outside of the stand and want to do a full siphon from it to the sump. An Eheim 1262 within the sump will serve as return to that aquarium.

Questions:

1. Do I need a significant vertical drop to get the siphon to kick in? Or, as long as I have no horizontal runs, will I be fine (horizontal run is ~3.5ft and total vertical drop is ~1ft as currently designed)?

2. That pump is rated at 900 gal/hr at zero head. If I dial the pump back a little (600-700 gph) with a gate valve, will 3/4" drains handle the flow?

Thanks in advance. This thread has been invaluable in my builds.

Adam

I can't definitively answer your question about the vertical drop, but a 3.5 ft horizontal run with only a 1 foot vertical drop would be concerning for me.

Regarding your bulkhead, it depends on the pump, but your flow will likely be significantly less than 900 gph by the time you add your plumbing. A ¾" bulkhead will likely handle it, depending on the plumbing you have.

 

[uncleof6]

A 1' (12"; head height) drop, through a 3/4" bulkhead will handle ~663gph max theoretical with no pipe. After friction losses in 3/4" pipe, it will be significantly lower. Friction losses for pump feeding 600gph through 3/4" pipe will be excessively high as well.

The horizontal run will most likely air lock the drain. (Trap air in the siphon.) There are very very few situations where the drain lines cannot be angled down. Sometimes it requires some plan changes.

 

[uncleof6]

Hey Uncle,

For my system, how much of a drop do i want inside the overflow box?

If i understand you guys correctly, raising the OC will determine my running water height within the box? doing this i should be able to set the return to 60% as opposed to the 40% its at now. And yes it gets crazy loud as i get into 80%+ on my return!

I should mention that in the video the gate valve is closed quite a bit, not sure how much exactly

The valve setting on the siphon determines the running water level in the overflow box. The problem with your system, is you are not getting any pressure head above the siphon, therefore the system is not starting up right.

Whether raising the open channel a 1/2" or so, will cure the problem or not is an unknown. Whether bushing the siphon down to 1" would solve the problem is an unknown. Those are the two cures for this issue, provided the rest of the system is "right."

I have tried pretty hard to find a video of a BA, as designed, firing up the proper way, with little luck so far. I have found a BA variant that does fire up properly. I think this system would fire up properly with the OC and Siphon at the same level, but I cannot be sure, I don't have my hands on the system. I do know that the OC would not need to be quite as high as it is.

This is what your system is not doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY

And that is what yours needs it to do. (Watch the head height over the siphon.)

You want the waterfall into the overflow to be ~1 - 1.5". It is not rocket science, so you don't need a micrometer. But in that area. So I would raise all three standpipes up in the overflow. Your overflow box is going to be a problem no matter water, due to the size and the teeth, at just about any flow rate above where it is now. The drain system as it is right now, will handle 3000gph+. The overflow at that flow rate will make you want to shoot it.

So what precisely should be done to fix your system depends on the flow rate. So let's start with the tank size, and multiply that by 10 to arrive at a target flow rate. (Very reasonable.) We can go from there.

 

[sleepydoc]

A 1' (12"; head height) drop, through a 3/4" bulkhead will handle ~663gph max theoretical with no pipe. After friction losses in 3/4" pipe, it will be significantly lower. Friction losses for pump feeding 600gph through 3/4" pipe will be excessively high as well.

The horizontal run will most likely air lock the drain. (Trap air in the siphon.) There are very very few situations where the drain lines cannot be angled down. Sometimes it requires some plan changes.

You'll probably be better off upsizing both the return plumbing and the overflow plumbing. You'll still be limited somewhat by the bulkhead, but the friction losses from the pipe will drop considerably.

 

[adamwheel]

Thanks

Thanks

Thanks for the replies. I'll consider raising new aquarium a little and increasing pvc to 1". Sounds like the best solution.

 

[sleepydoc]

Thanks for the replies. I'll consider raising new aquarium a little and increasing pvc to 1". Sounds like the best solution.

The extra height will give you more flow in the siphon, too. (the extra energy from the longer drop is greater than the friction loss from longer plumbing, assuming you don't have a huge horizontal run in there)

 

[ChrisQ]

The valve setting on the siphon determines the running water level in the overflow box. The problem with your system, is you are not getting any pressure head above the siphon, therefore the system is not starting up right.

Whether raising the open channel a 1/2" or so, will cure the problem or not is an unknown. Whether bushing the siphon down to 1" would solve the problem is an unknown. Those are the two cures for this issue, provided the rest of the system is "right."

I have tried pretty hard to find a video of a BA, as designed, firing up the proper way, with little luck so far. I have found a BA variant that does fire up properly. I think this system would fire up properly with the OC and Siphon at the same level, but I cannot be sure, I don't have my hands on the system. I do know that the OC would not need to be quite as high as it is.

This is what your system is not doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY

And that is what yours needs it to do. (Watch the head height over the siphon.)

You want the waterfall into the overflow to be ~1 - 1.5". It is not rocket science, so you don't need a micrometer. But in that area. So I would raise all three standpipes up in the overflow. Your overflow box is going to be a problem no matter water, due to the size and the teeth, at just about any flow rate above where it is now. The drain system as it is right now, will handle 3000gph+. The overflow at that flow rate will make you want to shoot it.

So what precisely should be done to fix your system depends on the flow rate. So let's start with the tank size, and multiply that by 10 to arrive at a target flow rate. (Very reasonable.) We can go from there.

Thanks uncle, i have since figured everything out and made the proper changes, thanks for all the input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buMDhpsJwac&feature=youtu.be

And since you cant see the box very well..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp1KPfkkkK8&feature=youtu.be

 

[Ironwood]

Is the ball valve on the siphon drain? If so, look up a few posts - same thing happened to me. Turned out to be bubbles getting caught in the drain line.

Thanks for the reply,
Yes the ball value is on the full Siphon line. I have the OS .5" above the FS If I close/block the OS completely the noise goes away but the adjustment of the ball value is very touchy. It seems like if I raise the OS a little higher the problem will go away. All of the plumbing is 1.5" with the external weir being 18x6.5"x6. Should I have used 1" instead? The internal weir is 32"x1.5"x5". I also have two holes from the internal to the external that are 2" each.


72 gallon bow front, 20 gallon sump with ehiem 5000 pump, reef Octopus 150sss

 

[adova]

Thanks for the reply,
Yes the ball value is on the full Siphon line. I have the OS .5" above the FS If I close/block the OS completely the noise goes away but the adjustment of the ball value is very touchy. It seems like if I raise the OS a little higher the problem will go away. All of the plumbing is 1.5" with the external weir being 18x6.5"x6. Should I have used 1" instead? The internal weir is 32"x1.5"x5". I also have two holes from the internal to the external that are 2" each.


72 gallon bow front, 20 gallon sump with ehiem 5000 pump, reef Octopus 150sss

Well, if the noise is gone when the OC is closed, then I would deduct that the noise is actually from the OC and not the ball valve of the siphon. If you have too much water running through the OC, it will be noisy. The trick is to get the level to the point where the OC flow is barely there...

You may also want to investigate replacing the ball valve on the siphon with a gate valve to get more control over the adjustment.

 

[dirtycontour]

I apologize in advance for asking the same tired question. I just want to make sure these holes are in the proper place. I am planning on one inch bulkheads.