Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Ok everyone. I have a bit of a pickle here. My friend has a tank that he basically copied off my existing tank. He runs an external overflow that's 5" deep and 5" tall. He's running all 1.5" plumbing. The siphon is 1/2" above the bottom of the overflow and the secondary is 1" above the bottom. The secondary is tapped with a 1/4" JG fitting and uses 1/4" rigid tubing. We can not get the secondary to siphon and purge the overflow. There is water flowing thru it, but once the overflow fills, the emrgency kicks in the the secondary won't flush the OF. The tubing is air tight. I can blow thru the tubing and bubbles comes out of the inlet of the drain. And when I suck on the tubing (let's be adults about this!), the Secondary will siphon and purge. All the plumbing is 1.5". The siphon terminates about 1/4" under the water level in the sump. The secondary terminates about 3"-4" under the water level. He's not running any 45s. Only using 90s. He though the looks was cleaner. I've used 90s before for all bends and haven't had any issues likes this before. I'm thinking that maybe there's not enough head pressure over the secondary to start the siphon. But that's all I can come up with. He's running about 800GPH thru the sump. Using two 90s glued together in the overflow to get water to sump. The water height in OF normally runs about 2.5"-3" high. So... Any thoughts?
 
Not totally clear what the issue is - is the siphon channel starting up ok, but you're concerned that the open channel won't siphon? What happens when you occlude the ¼" tubing off the open channel with your finger? It should convert to an unrestricted siphon and rapidly drain the overflow box.

The normal configuration is to have the opening of the ¼" tubing above the level of the dry emergency pipe, so as long as the dry emergency is working, the water level never gets high enough to occlude the tubing and the open channel remains an open channel.
 
Thats how it's setup. I've done several beans, and this is the first time I've ever ran into this. Mine on my tank works fine, but his does not. We have all the same equipment too. Same return and same piping.

When plugging the air tube, nothing happens. It's weird. There IS water flowing down the drain. You can see the air bubbles exiting the pipe in the sump. But when plugging the tubing... Nothing. But when it's sucked on, it purges. That's why I was thinking maybe the flow isn't enough for it to work properly. Or maybe there's not enough head height over the elbows?
 
Hey All,

I just got done setting up a new external skimmer and seem to have a little problem.

I am running one of my 1" drains to the skimmer to feed dirty water to the skimmer. The other 1" is a complete siphon(awesome) no bubbles it is quiet and great!

The other seems to be a bigger problem then before. From the external skimmer it is drained to the sump and it bubbles like crazy. If I put a siphon on it the skimmer drains. Then I have to close the gate valve which the skimmer works put not like the other when it is not being siphoned..

Any ideas on how to quiet this?
 
Here is a picture hard to see everything
16821073232_7b36c2ddc8_h.jpg
[/url]2015-03-12 20.39.14 by govertical19, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
Last edited:
reefermad619 said:
Ok everyone. I have a bit of a pickle here. My friend has a tank that he basically copied off my existing tank. He runs an external overflow that's 5" deep and 5" tall. He's running all 1.5" plumbing. The siphon is 1/2" above the bottom of the overflow and the secondary is 1" above the bottom. The secondary is tapped with a 1/4" JG fitting and uses 1/4" rigid tubing. We can not get the secondary to siphon and purge the overflow. There is water flowing thru it, but once the overflow fills, the emrgency kicks in the the secondary won't flush the OF. The tubing is air tight. I can blow thru the tubing and bubbles comes out of the inlet of the drain. And when I suck on the tubing (let's be adults about this!), the Secondary will siphon and purge. All the plumbing is 1.5". The siphon terminates about 1/4" under the water level in the sump. The secondary terminates about 3"-4" under the water level. He's not running any 45s. Only using 90s. He though the looks was cleaner. I've used 90s before for all bends and haven't had any issues likes this before. I'm thinking that maybe there's not enough head pressure over the secondary to start the siphon. But that's all I can come up with. He's running about 800GPH thru the sump. Using two 90s glued together in the overflow to get water to sump. The water height in OF normally runs about 2.5"-3" high. So... Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Solved! Water wasn't flowing high enough over the elbows in OF. Once the water height was dialed in better, works like it should.
 
govertical19 said:
Hey All,

I just got done setting up a new external skimmer and seem to have a little problem.

I am running one of my 1" drains to the skimmer to feed dirty water to the skimmer. The other 1" is a complete siphon(awesome) no bubbles it is quiet and great!

The other seems to be a bigger problem then before. From the external skimmer it is drained to the sump and it bubbles like crazy. If I put a siphon on it the skimmer drains. Then I have to close the gate valve which the skimmer works put not like the other when it is not being siphoned..

Any ideas on how to quiet this?
Click to expand...

Yep. Stop trying to feed your skimmer from the open channel. Just because there is supposed to be a small amount of flow in it, does not mean it is useful for anything other than a drain. There is also not supposed to be enough flow through the open channel to begin to feed a skimmer, nor a "fuge" while we are at it. Due to the interaction between the siphon and the open channel, they both must "dump" into the same body of water, as well as come from the same body of water. You may also have to increase the pipe size of the open channel to make it easier to keep quiet.

This is a drain system, not a multipurpose pump replacement. :)
 
I wouldn't want anything off my open channel. I barely have any flow through it to really provide any use for anything or enough pressure. I also wouldn't want any pressure applied to it to back it up any. I also notice the flow rate varies slightly which would also not be good for a skimmer.
 
Last edited:
uncleof6 said:
Yep. Stop trying to feed your skimmer from the open channel. Just because there is supposed to be a small amount of flow in it, does not mean it is useful for anything other than a drain. There is also not supposed to be enough flow through the open channel to begin to feed a skimmer, nor a "fuge" while we are at it. Due to the interaction between the siphon and the open channel, they both must "dump" into the same body of water, as well as come from the same body of water. You may also have to increase the pipe size of the open channel to make it easier to keep quiet.

This is a drain system, not a multipurpose pump replacement. :)
Click to expand...
I do not understand.

My skimmer has a rated thru put of 1200 to 1600 gph.

If i can get that from a drain that is gonna feed it dirty water there is why would i not want to do that? And only use one pump.

Even if i use another pump why would innot have the same problem or the wayer being returnes to the sump filled with air and cause noise and water splash?

Please keep in mind that this is my first external skimmer.
 
govertical19 said:
I do not understand.

My skimmer has a rated thru put of 1200 to 1600 gph.

If i can get that from a drain that is gonna feed it dirty water there is why would i not want to do that? And only use one pump.

Even if i use another pump why would innot have the same problem or the wayer being returnes to the sump filled with air and cause noise and water splash?

Please keep in mind that this is my first external skimmer.
Click to expand...

The flow rate of the skimmer is irrelevant. This is a drain system not a skimmer feed or general feed for anything else. If you have 1200 to 1600 through your open channel then you are not running the drain system properly, and it is a flood waiting to happen. Putting it very simply, you are messing with the physics of the drain system, and it is not going to work properly.

When you turn the flow rate down in the open channel by properly adjusting the system, there will no longer be bubbles running through it as the flow rate will be less than 10% of the total system flow. If you cannot get the bubbles to stop, then you have made some other error in the implementation of your drain system, or you need to use larger pipe on the open channel.

I understand about first external skimmer. However, first external or not, there is pump recommended by the manufacturer for it. Use that pump to feed the skimmer. You are not going to get away with a single pump.
 
uncleof6 said:
The flow rate of the skimmer is irrelevant. This is a drain system not a skimmer feed or general feed for anything else. If you have 1200 to 1600 through your open channel then you are not running the drain system properly, and it is a flood waiting to happen. Putting it very simply, you are messing with the physics of the drain system, and it is not going to work properly.

When you turn the flow rate down in the open channel by properly adjusting the system, there will no longer be bubbles running through it as the flow rate will be less than 10% of the total system flow. If you cannot get the bubbles to stop, then you have made some other error in the implementation of your drain system, or you need to use larger pipe on the open channel.

I understand about first external skimmer. However, first external or not, there is pump recommended by the manufacturer for it. Use that pump to feed the skimmer. You are not going to get away with a single pump.
Click to expand...

I am kind of using a hybrid version of the bean.

I did not drill my tank and am using 2 of the original holes in the bottom of the tank. I think what you are calling the open drain is not feeding the skimmer. The full siphon line is feeding the skimmer. The open drain is going straight to the sump which has a little amount of bubbles but hardly any. Nothing I am worried about.

I watched a ton of videos and this tread is very large so excuse me if I am using the incorrect terms for the drain.

I am sure I know what your answer is gonna be but from what I said above does that change anything in your opinion?
 
Are there 3/4" sanitary tees available anywhere? If not, should I just use a standard tee or will this interfere with the starting of the siphon?
 
I would go up to at least 1" plumbing. Depending on the drop, ¾" may or may not be able to handle your desired flow, but ¾" for the open channel will have a miserably small range of flows in which it stays silent.

As Bean said, a standard Tee will work.
 
govertical19 said:
I am kind of using a hybrid version of the bean.

I did not drill my tank and am using 2 of the original holes in the bottom of the tank. I think what you are calling the open drain is not feeding the skimmer. The full siphon line is feeding the skimmer. The open drain is going straight to the sump which has a little amount of bubbles but hardly any. Nothing I am worried about.

I watched a ton of videos and this tread is very large so excuse me if I am using the incorrect terms for the drain.

I am sure I know what your answer is gonna be but from what I said above does that change anything in your opinion?
Click to expand...

'Hybrid version' with only 2 holes? That sounds like a wet Herbie. Where is your 3rd channel? Normally a bean has a siphon channel with a (gate) valve, an open channel (similar to a Durso,) and a dry emergency channel.

You initially said the open channel was feeding the skimmer, now say the siphon is feeding the skimmer - either way, Uncle's advice applies - overflow drains to the sump, plumb the skimmer separately.
 
sleepydoc said:
I would go up to at least 1" plumbing. Depending on the drop, ¾" may or may not be able to handle your desired flow, but ¾" for the open channel will have a miserably small range of flows in which it stays silent.

As Bean said, a standard Tee will work.
Click to expand...

It's not going far (tank to sump under stand so about 3') so that could be an issue. I can slow the flow rate down to 5-600gph without any negative side effects if I run into issues. Switching to 1" bulkheads may be possible but wouldnt be easy at this point.
 
madweazl said:
It's not going far (tank to sump under stand so about 3') so that could be an issue. I can slow the flow rate down to 5-600gph without any negative side effects if I run into issues. Switching to 1" bulkheads may be possible but wouldnt be easy at this point.
Click to expand...

Keeping the ¾" bulkheads and switching to 1" pipe will still improve flows
 
Not sure I have the space to run 1" above the bulkhead because the overflow box is fairly small. I could go 1" below that bulkhead if it would really make a difference but I've always been told opening the restriction after said restriction does nothing (other references, not aquarium drains). Of course, this would require me to order new red furniture grade PVC :lol:
 
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