Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[govertical19]

Here is a picture hard to see everything

[/url]2015-03-12 20.39.14 by govertical19, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[reefermad619]

Ok everyone. I have a bit of a pickle here. My friend has a tank that he basically copied off my existing tank. He runs an external overflow that's 5" deep and 5" tall. He's running all 1.5" plumbing. The siphon is 1/2" above the bottom of the overflow and the secondary is 1" above the bottom. The secondary is tapped with a 1/4" JG fitting and uses 1/4" rigid tubing. We can not get the secondary to siphon and purge the overflow. There is water flowing thru it, but once the overflow fills, the emrgency kicks in the the secondary won't flush the OF. The tubing is air tight. I can blow thru the tubing and bubbles comes out of the inlet of the drain. And when I suck on the tubing (let's be adults about this!), the Secondary will siphon and purge. All the plumbing is 1.5". The siphon terminates about 1/4" under the water level in the sump. The secondary terminates about 3"-4" under the water level. He's not running any 45s. Only using 90s. He though the looks was cleaner. I've used 90s before for all bends and haven't had any issues likes this before. I'm thinking that maybe there's not enough head pressure over the secondary to start the siphon. But that's all I can come up with. He's running about 800GPH thru the sump. Using two 90s glued together in the overflow to get water to sump. The water height in OF normally runs about 2.5"-3" high. So... Any thoughts?

Solved! Water wasn't flowing high enough over the elbows in OF. Once the water height was dialed in better, works like it should.

 

[uncleof6]

Hey All,

I just got done setting up a new external skimmer and seem to have a little problem.

I am running one of my 1" drains to the skimmer to feed dirty water to the skimmer. The other 1" is a complete siphon(awesome) no bubbles it is quiet and great!

The other seems to be a bigger problem then before. From the external skimmer it is drained to the sump and it bubbles like crazy. If I put a siphon on it the skimmer drains. Then I have to close the gate valve which the skimmer works put not like the other when it is not being siphoned..

Any ideas on how to quiet this?

Yep. Stop trying to feed your skimmer from the open channel. Just because there is supposed to be a small amount of flow in it, does not mean it is useful for anything other than a drain. There is also not supposed to be enough flow through the open channel to begin to feed a skimmer, nor a "fuge" while we are at it. Due to the interaction between the siphon and the open channel, they both must "dump" into the same body of water, as well as come from the same body of water. You may also have to increase the pipe size of the open channel to make it easier to keep quiet.

This is a drain system, not a multipurpose pump replacement.

 

[jason2459]

I wouldn't want anything off my open channel. I barely have any flow through it to really provide any use for anything or enough pressure. I also wouldn't want any pressure applied to it to back it up any. I also notice the flow rate varies slightly which would also not be good for a skimmer.

 

[govertical19]

Yep. Stop trying to feed your skimmer from the open channel. Just because there is supposed to be a small amount of flow in it, does not mean it is useful for anything other than a drain. There is also not supposed to be enough flow through the open channel to begin to feed a skimmer, nor a "fuge" while we are at it. Due to the interaction between the siphon and the open channel, they both must "dump" into the same body of water, as well as come from the same body of water. You may also have to increase the pipe size of the open channel to make it easier to keep quiet.

This is a drain system, not a multipurpose pump replacement.

I do not understand.

My skimmer has a rated thru put of 1200 to 1600 gph.

If i can get that from a drain that is gonna feed it dirty water there is why would i not want to do that? And only use one pump.

Even if i use another pump why would innot have the same problem or the wayer being returnes to the sump filled with air and cause noise and water splash?

Please keep in mind that this is my first external skimmer.

 

[uncleof6]

I do not understand.

My skimmer has a rated thru put of 1200 to 1600 gph.

If i can get that from a drain that is gonna feed it dirty water there is why would i not want to do that? And only use one pump.

Even if i use another pump why would innot have the same problem or the wayer being returnes to the sump filled with air and cause noise and water splash?

Please keep in mind that this is my first external skimmer.

The flow rate of the skimmer is irrelevant. This is a drain system not a skimmer feed or general feed for anything else. If you have 1200 to 1600 through your open channel then you are not running the drain system properly, and it is a flood waiting to happen. Putting it very simply, you are messing with the physics of the drain system, and it is not going to work properly.

When you turn the flow rate down in the open channel by properly adjusting the system, there will no longer be bubbles running through it as the flow rate will be less than 10% of the total system flow. If you cannot get the bubbles to stop, then you have made some other error in the implementation of your drain system, or you need to use larger pipe on the open channel.

I understand about first external skimmer. However, first external or not, there is pump recommended by the manufacturer for it. Use that pump to feed the skimmer. You are not going to get away with a single pump.

 

[govertical19]

The flow rate of the skimmer is irrelevant. This is a drain system not a skimmer feed or general feed for anything else. If you have 1200 to 1600 through your open channel then you are not running the drain system properly, and it is a flood waiting to happen. Putting it very simply, you are messing with the physics of the drain system, and it is not going to work properly.

When you turn the flow rate down in the open channel by properly adjusting the system, there will no longer be bubbles running through it as the flow rate will be less than 10% of the total system flow. If you cannot get the bubbles to stop, then you have made some other error in the implementation of your drain system, or you need to use larger pipe on the open channel.

I understand about first external skimmer. However, first external or not, there is pump recommended by the manufacturer for it. Use that pump to feed the skimmer. You are not going to get away with a single pump.

I am kind of using a hybrid version of the bean.

I did not drill my tank and am using 2 of the original holes in the bottom of the tank. I think what you are calling the open drain is not feeding the skimmer. The full siphon line is feeding the skimmer. The open drain is going straight to the sump which has a little amount of bubbles but hardly any. Nothing I am worried about.

I watched a ton of videos and this tread is very large so excuse me if I am using the incorrect terms for the drain.

I am sure I know what your answer is gonna be but from what I said above does that change anything in your opinion?

 

[madweazl]

Are there 3/4" sanitary tees available anywhere? If not, should I just use a standard tee or will this interfere with the starting of the siphon?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Are there 3/4" sanitary tees available anywhere? If not, should I just use a standard tee or will this interfere with the starting of the siphon?

Your not going to find 3/4" santees.... 1.25" is the smallest you will find them.

A standard TEE will work.

 

[madweazl]

Your not going to find 3/4" santees.... 1.25" is the smallest you will find them.

A standard TEE will work.

Is there a better option in 3/4"? I'm only going to be pushing 6-800gph.

 

[sleepydoc]

I would go up to at least 1" plumbing. Depending on the drop, ¾" may or may not be able to handle your desired flow, but ¾" for the open channel will have a miserably small range of flows in which it stays silent.

As Bean said, a standard Tee will work.

 

[sleepydoc]

I am kind of using a hybrid version of the bean.

I did not drill my tank and am using 2 of the original holes in the bottom of the tank. I think what you are calling the open drain is not feeding the skimmer. The full siphon line is feeding the skimmer. The open drain is going straight to the sump which has a little amount of bubbles but hardly any. Nothing I am worried about.

I watched a ton of videos and this tread is very large so excuse me if I am using the incorrect terms for the drain.

I am sure I know what your answer is gonna be but from what I said above does that change anything in your opinion?

'Hybrid version' with only 2 holes? That sounds like a wet Herbie. Where is your 3rd channel? Normally a bean has a siphon channel with a (gate) valve, an open channel (similar to a Durso,) and a dry emergency channel.

You initially said the open channel was feeding the skimmer, now say the siphon is feeding the skimmer - either way, Uncle's advice applies - overflow drains to the sump, plumb the skimmer separately.

 

[madweazl]

I would go up to at least 1" plumbing. Depending on the drop, ¾" may or may not be able to handle your desired flow, but ¾" for the open channel will have a miserably small range of flows in which it stays silent.

As Bean said, a standard Tee will work.

It's not going far (tank to sump under stand so about 3') so that could be an issue. I can slow the flow rate down to 5-600gph without any negative side effects if I run into issues. Switching to 1" bulkheads may be possible but wouldnt be easy at this point.

 

[sleepydoc]

It's not going far (tank to sump under stand so about 3') so that could be an issue. I can slow the flow rate down to 5-600gph without any negative side effects if I run into issues. Switching to 1" bulkheads may be possible but wouldnt be easy at this point.

Keeping the ¾" bulkheads and switching to 1" pipe will still improve flows

 

[madweazl]

Not sure I have the space to run 1" above the bulkhead because the overflow box is fairly small. I could go 1" below that bulkhead if it would really make a difference but I've always been told opening the restriction after said restriction does nothing (other references, not aquarium drains). Of course, this would require me to order new red furniture grade PVC :lol:

 

[uncleof6]

Not sure I have the space to run 1" above the bulkhead because the overflow box is fairly small. I could go 1" below that bulkhead if it would really make a difference but I've always been told opening the restriction after said restriction does nothing (other references, not aquarium drains). Of course, this would require me to order new red furniture grade PVC :lol:

The flow is limited by the size of the bulkhead and the length of the drop, to a maximum theoretical gph. The pipe size involves friction loss. The larger the pipe, the less friction loss, and the closer you get to the theoretical maximum. It is not possible to reach the max theoretical however, as it assumes no pipe. E.G. no friction losses.

That said, 3/4" pipe really does not have a practical application for marine systems. The friction loss is excessive, and the risk of plugging is too high. Minimum that should be considered is 1", when discussing siphon systems. When discussing nanos, for which is siphon system is really not warranted, 1.25" pipe on 1" bulkheads should be considered the bare minimum practical application.

 

[mateomarinereef]

Hey All!! Sorry this is my first post and I am not sure how to start this??

Hey All!! Sorry this is my first post and I am not sure how to start this??

I have been having trouble with my new 150 cube build in regards to the overflow discharge in the sump. I didn't know how to start a thread or post a new question so I am very sorry if this the wrong way to go about it. Anyways I have a reef ready marine land 150 cube with stock overflow. when the plumbing discharges in the sump bubble tower/filter socks it looks like its boiling and the micro bubbles are INSANE!!! I tried a few quick fixes but none seem to stay. The last was to extend the the piping almost down to the bottom of sump put a tee on it, then add a 90 pointing opposite direction so the water discharges away from baffles. then add another 90 going up with a long piece of pvc extending out of the water as like a air vent/bleed i guess you could call it.
It worked great for 10 minutes then i had to shut off return pump and when i restarted it the boiling came back. I am sooo frustrated and don't know where to turn to get the advice I need so i am starting here. And again sorry for bum rushing this thread!!!! Any help suggestions would be greatly appreciated and many thanks in advance!!! Please help reefer in crisis!!!! haha

 

[adova]

I have been having trouble with my new 150 cube build in regards to the overflow discharge in the sump. I didn't know how to start a thread or post a new question so I am very sorry if this the wrong way to go about it. Anyways I have a reef ready marine land 150 cube with stock overflow. when the plumbing discharges in the sump bubble tower/filter socks it looks like its boiling and the micro bubbles are INSANE!!! I tried a few quick fixes but none seem to stay. The last was to extend the the piping almost down to the bottom of sump put a tee on it, then add a 90 pointing opposite direction so the water discharges away from baffles. then add another 90 going up with a long piece of pvc extending out of the water as like a air vent/bleed i guess you could call it.
It worked great for 10 minutes then i had to shut off return pump and when i restarted it the boiling came back. I am sooo frustrated and don't know where to turn to get the advice I need so i am starting here. And again sorry for bum rushing this thread!!!! Any help suggestions would be greatly appreciated and many thanks in advance!!! Please help reefer in crisis!!!! haha

We really have no idea what you are running. Can you provide pics? Boiling isn't necessarily bad, and the bubbles are due to air in your drains. But it is hard to say what you problem is as we are not sure what you are trying to do...

 

[sleepydoc]

I have been having trouble with my new 150 cube build in regards to the overflow discharge in the sump. I didn't know how to start a thread or post a new question so I am very sorry if this the wrong way to go about it. Anyways I have a reef ready marine land 150 cube with stock overflow. when the plumbing discharges in the sump bubble tower/filter socks it looks like its boiling and the micro bubbles are INSANE!!! I tried a few quick fixes but none seem to stay. The last was to extend the the piping almost down to the bottom of sump put a tee on it, then add a 90 pointing opposite direction so the water discharges away from baffles. then add another 90 going up with a long piece of pvc extending out of the water as like a air vent/bleed i guess you could call it.
It worked great for 10 minutes then i had to shut off return pump and when i restarted it the boiling came back. I am sooo frustrated and don't know where to turn to get the advice I need so i am starting here. And again sorry for bum rushing this thread!!!! Any help suggestions would be greatly appreciated and many thanks in advance!!! Please help reefer in crisis!!!! haha

Welcome to Reef Central!

This thread is for the bean animal overflow; Please start a new thread and re-post your question as a new thread; that will keep this thread from getting (even more) cluttered and make it easier for people to help you with your problem.

 

[thejuggernaut]

I have been having trouble with my new 150 cube build in regards to the overflow discharge in the sump. I didn't know how to start a thread or post a new question so I am very sorry if this the wrong way to go about it. Anyways I have a reef ready marine land 150 cube with stock overflow. when the plumbing discharges in the sump bubble tower/filter socks it looks like its boiling and the micro bubbles are INSANE!!! I tried a few quick fixes but none seem to stay. The last was to extend the the piping almost down to the bottom of sump put a tee on it, then add a 90 pointing opposite direction so the water discharges away from baffles. then add another 90 going up with a long piece of pvc extending out of the water as like a air vent/bleed i guess you could call it.
It worked great for 10 minutes then i had to shut off return pump and when i restarted it the boiling came back. I am sooo frustrated and don't know where to turn to get the advice I need so i am starting here. And again sorry for bum rushing this thread!!!! Any help suggestions would be greatly appreciated and many thanks in advance!!! Please help reefer in crisis!!!! haha

Start Here.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892

Long story short the thread I just linked was the precursor to this one. The original Herbie uses the two bulkheads in the standard marineland overflow using both of them as drains. The newer version called a "Bean Animal" relies on 3 drain lines. You could implement the one in the thread above with little effort. While the one in this thread is a little more robust and safe against leaks, it would require drilling another couple of holes in your tank. Happy reading. If you read both of these you'll be done by summer, although I feel you will get 90% of what you need in the first few pages of both.