Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Sisterlimonpot]

Appreciate the response. The reason I want to go AnimalBean is that my wife will probably divorce me if I have another flood. haha I too thought about the 2 herbie thing, but seems like a PITA to get them dialed in.

You're probably right, Without setting one up I wouldn't know for sure. It could be as easy as setting both "full siphons" and forgetting about it or it can be constant adjustments.

Although I think that herbie design will offer great protection from a flood, you just wont have that failsafe of the failsafe.

But if it were me, I would drill the tank and be part of the bean animal club!!! hehe.

 

[Camarofish]

So, attached is my preliminary plan. Not sure if I'm still going to flow with 1.25" or go with 1.5". At this point I bought all of the 1.25" Spaflex, but can return it for bigger. This is not to scale and I'm no designer, but if anyone sees any flaws, constructive criticism is welcome.

 

[Djbeasley05]

So, attached is my preliminary plan. Not sure if I'm still going to flow with 1.25" or go with 1.5". At this point I bought all of the 1.25" Spaflex, but can return it for bigger. This is not to scale and I'm no designer, but if anyone sees any flaws, constructive criticism is welcome.

Looks good! Why do you have a gate and ball valve on the full siphon line?


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[Camarofish]

Looks good! Why do you have a gate and ball valve on the full siphon line?


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Thank you! The reason for both is so I can fine tune it from above and if I need to disconnect in the basement for maintenance, etc. I can do it from that level. Let me know if that doesn't make sense...save me some $

 

[Djbeasley05]

Thank you! The reason for both is so I can fine tune it from above and if I need to disconnect in the basement for maintenance, etc. I can do it from that level. Let me know if that doesn't make sense...save me some $

You can accomplish the same thing by just shutting off your return pump for maintenance. Once the siphon breaks you won't have any water coming out and you can isconnect at the Union without having to retune your drain


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[Camarofish]

You can accomplish the same thing by just shutting off your return pump for maintenance. Once the siphon breaks you won't have any water coming out and you can isconnect at the Union without having to retune your drain


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Sweet! Thanks for the advice!

 

[Hal]

What is more important to the flow of a siphon? The weight of the water below the bulkhead? Or the weight of the water above the bulkhead?

My overflow is only about 6" deep, but I will have about a 3' fall. How do I determine my flow rate of the siphon?

Using your parlance, it's actually the sum of the weight of the water in the pipe, both above and below the bulkhead. Said another way, it's the length of the pipe that is fully full of water plus any water height above that.

Because gravity accelerates the water at 32 ft per second squared, the longer the water is in the pipe, the faster it will flow. And because the pipe is in siphon mode, the falling water pulls on the water above it, sucking water into the siphon (assuming you have enough water to fully supply the siphon), and accelerating the new water as the earlier water accelerates. So if the first water in the siphon hits the sump at 2000 gph, for example, ALL the water in the siphon tube is moving at 2000 gph at the very instant that it enters the siphon (because the earlier water pulls it down).

In contrast, in non-siphon mode, the first water down the drain does not "pull" on the later water, so each water drop starts out at 32 feet per second squared and gradually accelerates to its final flowrate.

Another way to think of it is that you have car #1 (non-siphon) doing 1/4 mile drag race. It starts from a standing position and accelerates normally from 0 to 200 mph by the time it hits the finish. In contrast car #2 (siphon) is instantly accelerated to 200 mph the second the light turns green and runs the entire race at 200 mph. Which car wins the race?

 

[rlinusc]

Hello all, I have a bean animal set up for the first time- the actual drain is pretty quiet, but there is noise from the water coming in from the bulkhead to the overflow box- I did set up the level such that the water level is about in the middle of the bulkhead and the open channel is set pretty muc( at the same spot. Is this noise just what I should expect?


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[rlinusc]

On second thought, 8 think this is much louder than it should be, not sure if I did something er8ng on the open channel, if I have the water level (adjusting the siphon) cover the bulkheads, it is still loud and the open channel has a ton of bubbles. Maybe my siphon hasn't purged the air? I tested hav8ng the airline going in the water and the open channel did go into siphon mode.

To be clear my siphon is only about 4 inches below the mid point of the open channel, so maybe it just won't purge the air? I made sure to have both the open and siphon to not let out too far below the surface of the sump. I don't see the siphon vortexing and I don't have any horizontal runs just 45s.

Is there a post in troubleshooting I am missing?


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[Djbeasley05]

On second thought, 8 think this is much louder than it should be, not sure if I did something er8ng on the open channel, if I have the water level (adjusting the siphon) cover the bulkheads, it is still loud and the open channel has a ton of bubbles. Maybe my siphon hasn't purged the air? I tested hav8ng the airline going in the water and the open channel did go into siphon mode.

To be clear my siphon is only about 4 inches below the mid point of the open channel, so maybe it just won't purge the air? I made sure to have both the open and siphon to not let out too far below the surface of the sump. I don't see the siphon vortexing and I don't have any horizontal runs just 45s.

Is there a post in troubleshooting I am missing?


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It sounds like your open channel is taking too much water. Try lowering the water level in the box without breaking the full siphon.


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[DougSupreme]

Open the valve on your siphon a bit. That will allow more water to flow down the siphon and less down the open channel

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[Djbeasley05]

Open the valve on your siphon a bit. That will allow more water to flow down the siphon and less down the open channel

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Implied from my post


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[rlinusc]

Will try that- how do you tell if the siphon air has been purged? There aren't any bubbles coming from there


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[rlinusc]

So I tried that, got even louder, what confuses me is that beananimal describes the system as self-tuning, and that on start the water should reach the emergency stand pipe before the siphon purges air and then goes into full siphon at which point the water level will go down to the right level on its own (as the full siphon starts moving the water much faster). I dint think this is what is happening with my system, or I am not letting it run down the emergency pipe long enough to purge the air... how long should I expect it to go for?


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[Djbeasley05]

So I tried that, got even louder, what confuses me is that beananimal describes the system as self-tuning, and that on start the water should reach the emergency stand pipe before the siphon purges air and then goes into full siphon at which point the water level will go down to the right level on its own (as the full siphon starts moving the water much faster). I dint think this is what is happening with my system, or I am not letting it run down the emergency pipe long enough to purge the air... how long should I expect it to go for?


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After you initially tune it, you won't need to retune in and it will self start. The two things I had to play with to get the full siphon was play with the valve and how far the pipe went under the water line in the sump. If it goes in the water further than 1/2" it might not be able to purge the air.


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[rlinusc]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn't have any bubbles, but I don't know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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[rlinusc]

No, like he said the valve is what will actually set the water level. The open channel & your pass through holes is what will determine where u want to set the water level. Now that u have a idea of where the water level needs to be relative to the open channel for it to be quiet it should be pretty easy. Now all u need to do is determine how high the water level needs to be on the pass thru bulkheads for that to be quiet. Then set the height of the open channel at that height. Personally, I would set height of the open channel to where the water level will be at about the 1/2 way point on the bulkheads & u should be fine. So being u have determined where the water level needs to be on the open channel for it to be quiet, set that point of the open channel standpipe about 1/2 way on the pass thru bulkheads.

So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn't all that quiet


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[Sisterlimonpot]

So I can get the open channel to just have a trickle (determine by just a small amount of bubble coming down.) but it is still loud- the siphon doesn’t have any bubbles, but I don’t know how to see if it has purged all the air. It goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches. To be fair the sound seems to be more the overflow box rather then the drains.


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So is it possible that my set up is loud because my open channel is set too low? So that the higher the water is for it come through the bulkhead quieter the open channel takes on too much water? The problem though is even when the water is higher on the bulkhead it isn’t all that quiet


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It's hard to say, but if you have bubbles coming out of your open than the water flow is too much, it should only trickle over the open.

What LSU suggested (And I would follow his advice) is to adjust your full siphon to set the water level to be right in the middle of your pass through bulk heads, then after that is set, you set the height of your open right at that level so that water only trickles over the open.

Not sure what you were referencing when you stated that

It [pipe] goes under the water surface by about 1-1 1/2 inches

. If you're talking about the open pipe, depth doesn't matter because you're not trying to create a siphon, you're essentially just allowing water to coat the inside of the pipe as it drains down, if the water flows too fast you will hear it and if it's fast enough to trap air then you'll never achieve silence.

If the full siphon is the pipe that terminates 1-1 1/2 below the surface then you will have to address that. there isn't enough height in your overflow to allow the full siphon to over come that excess pressure to become a full siphon before the open starts taking on too much water. And if that's happening, you wont achieve full silence.

The goal is to allow the full siphon to establish itself all the while the little bit of water flows through the open to balance out the system.

If you can snap some pictures and post them up we may be able to more accurately guide you through adjustment.

 

[rlinusc]

I think I am not an,e to purge the air before the open takes on too much water, I will shoot a video when I can. One problem too is that the elbo for my open is essentially turned to the side and is in the way of the bulkhead- unavoidable as the box isn't deep enough.


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[Sisterlimonpot]

Oh, so it may be the water sloshing around the down turned elbow that's the culprit. I personally was able to achieve silence by allowing to pass through bulkheads to be completely under water. From what I gather, my bulkheads sit lower than most ghost weirs. When I designed mine I was under the impression that they were supposed to be submerged, so I cut them in lower.

(Ignore all the writing, I use the overflow box as a dry erase board... hehe)

But you can see that my overflow box is roughly 60% full with the bulkheads completely submerged. not sure that is viable for your set up.