skimmer on a controller
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
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captain7359
Active member
I think she's just out of town this week......
another good reason to run a recirc skimmer would be so there is always water flowing through the body even if the main pumps are off.
another good reason to run a recirc skimmer would be so there is always water flowing through the body even if the main pumps are off.
SkiFletch
New member
I have my skimmer connected to my ACjr for a different reason, laziness/safety. When cleaning the skimmer cup it's convenient for me to just manual control and shut it off rather than trying to wrench the plug out of the socket each time. Also I built a splash shield for my DC8 just in case there's ever seawater spraying everywhere; I'm not a fan of fire inside my house 
. Rather than use extra powerstrips and chords everywhere, having everything off the DC8 is clean/convenient.
. Rather than use extra powerstrips and chords everywhere, having everything off the DC8 is clean/convenient.
Don't know how long it would take exactly Sort of depends on the water in them and how clean they are. Probably a day or two, more or less.
Most will contain lots of organic carbon which heterotrophic bacteria consume along with phosphorous and nitrogen. Most stale tank water particularly in a skimmer has these in ample supply as well. When bacteria consume carbon,phosphorous and nitrogen , they use oxygen. Without air exchange via bubbling and /or water movement, they will deplete the oxygen quickly. Then they'll deplete all of the oxygen in nitrate(NO3) creating and anoxic condition. Then they go to sulfate(SO4) for the oxygen they need to keep consuming the carbon, phosphorous and nitrogen. As they reduce the sulfate toxic hydrogen sulfide is produced.
So for this and other noted reasons throughout this thread , I'd say keep it running and keep it clean except for maintenance and feeding or medication cycles.
-FWIW,
Co2 and 02 are not in relation in the same way Ca and alk are. If one goes up doesn't make the other go down.
Its more effected by the household atomoshere,temp and specific gravity. There are whole host of other things,. PH effects skimming as well higher during the day could be gassing off Ammonia leading to less biological process in the overall end.To many varibles to say.Considering home aquariums even the best run highly maintained are probably 10-100 x more nutrient rich than on the reef,IMO, the value of skimming 24/7 out weighs any disadvantages.
I learned my lesson laborday storm of 98'. I ran a deepsand bed on a lagoonal system.Sandbeds are big consumers of O2.Lost a couple of my fish even with a battery operated airpump.
Co2 and 02 are not in relation in the same way Ca and alk are. If one goes up doesn't make the other go down.
Its more effected by the household atomoshere,temp and specific gravity. There are whole host of other things,. PH effects skimming as well higher during the day could be gassing off Ammonia leading to less biological process in the overall end.To many varibles to say.Considering home aquariums even the best run highly maintained are probably 10-100 x more nutrient rich than on the reef,IMO, the value of skimming 24/7 out weighs any disadvantages.
I learned my lesson laborday storm of 98'. I ran a deepsand bed on a lagoonal system.Sandbeds are big consumers of O2.Lost a couple of my fish even with a battery operated airpump.
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While I agree that CO2 and oxygen don't necessarily share a precise inverse relationship, the cessation of photosynthesis in a reef tank does drop O2 at night along with a CO2 increase from respiratton. This circumstance makes it important to insure adequate gas exchange at night in particular and skimming can assist.
Opposite photo period refugia will produce oxygen and consume CO2 while the tank is doing the opposite and are also helpful in preventing nightime hypoxia.
Higher CO2 is a given when lights are out due to no photosynthesis and respiration. The CO2 converts almost immediately to carbonic acid (H2CO3) in water which drops ph and may account for some increase in skimmate at night.
Opposite photo period refugia will produce oxygen and consume CO2 while the tank is doing the opposite and are also helpful in preventing nightime hypoxia.
Higher CO2 is a given when lights are out due to no photosynthesis and respiration. The CO2 converts almost immediately to carbonic acid (H2CO3) in water which drops ph and may account for some increase in skimmate at night.
becon776
New member
Opposite photo period refugia will produce oxygen and consume CO2 while the tank is doing the opposite and are also helpful in preventing nightime hypoxia.
agreed.
But my thoughts are what exactly are we skimming out and what is the end chemical state of that "stuff" if it isn't skimmed? If the end is NO3 and PO4 then if there is a big enough fuge wouldn't that eliminate the need for a skimmer?
agreed.
But my thoughts are what exactly are we skimming out and what is the end chemical state of that "stuff" if it isn't skimmed? If the end is NO3 and PO4 then if there is a big enough fuge wouldn't that eliminate the need for a skimmer?
-becon,
If you want my honest opinion,I would have to say no.an algae filter could not take the place of a skimmer.One of the biggest advantages a skimmer has over algae uptake is the speed it can do it.Have you ever read Dynamic Aquaria by -Adey? Its a great book if you haven't. Unfortunatly Bio- spere was a failure, IMO.
Organics are removed including organic carbon and bacteria plankton which consume organic carbon nitrate and phosphate. Algae actually produces organics. Removing organics which include organic carbon is important since high TOC is harmful to many corals. If you use a lot of granulated activated carbon perhaps with ozone you might might be able to successfully run a low nutrient tank without a skimmer.
GMaquarium
New member
I think that is what Borneman is suggesting, or at least was at one time. I remember reading about his system with no full time skimmers (I think he used them only while he was away traveling) and a huge amount of good grade, activated carbon.
Quality of water can be controlled with chemical filtration but I think it may end up costing much more on the long run. Skimmer is a one time investment. I have personally noticed that keeping fresh carbon in the tank at all times helps to keep water quality. I try to change out weekly but use a much smaller amount.
Just this month I have noticed something that can be very useful for this topic. I have not changed carbon on one of the systems for about two weeks. After doing sump clean out and a waterchanged I just forgot all about carbon and never changed it and put it back in the sump. While the other system right next to it I did change it. The system with new carbon has a much higher bioload but the skimmer has not made nearly as much skimmate in the last couple week, while the carbonless system on the left I had to empty out and clean the skimmer cup twice. By the way identical skimmers that normally make about same amount of stuff. I even have a cup drain on the right one because it sometimes makes more. So I will add some new carbon to the system and see if the skimmer slows down.
Quality of water can be controlled with chemical filtration but I think it may end up costing much more on the long run. Skimmer is a one time investment. I have personally noticed that keeping fresh carbon in the tank at all times helps to keep water quality. I try to change out weekly but use a much smaller amount.
Just this month I have noticed something that can be very useful for this topic. I have not changed carbon on one of the systems for about two weeks. After doing sump clean out and a waterchanged I just forgot all about carbon and never changed it and put it back in the sump. While the other system right next to it I did change it. The system with new carbon has a much higher bioload but the skimmer has not made nearly as much skimmate in the last couple week, while the carbonless system on the left I had to empty out and clean the skimmer cup twice. By the way identical skimmers that normally make about same amount of stuff. I even have a cup drain on the right one because it sometimes makes more. So I will add some new carbon to the system and see if the skimmer slows down.
becon776
New member
I know that if you study enormously huge systems >10,000 gallons they are very reliant on algal scrubbers. It would be a cool experiment to run two tanks interconnected same size, reverse photoperiod both with a heinous amount of light in them... one reef one purely stocked with fast growing plants.
I don't doubt the importance of a skimmer though. the pure satisfaction of dumping the crud out of the collection cup is priceless.
I don't doubt the importance of a skimmer though. the pure satisfaction of dumping the crud out of the collection cup is priceless.
Algal scrubbers, refugia, etc. are fine and excellent at exporting nitrogen
and inorganic phosphate if they are well manged . I use them. They do not , however, remove harmful organics(dissolved or undissolved); they actually produce them.
Organics are molecules which contain H(hydrogen) and C(carbon) along with a myriad of other things.
GAC (granulated activated carbon ) and resins such as purigen do remove organics as do skimmers but only those organic chains with an affinity for the resin, gac and/or air water interface of the skimmer. Managing total organic carbon(TOC) beyond just water clarity is a challenging rather new task in the hobby.
Algae uses inorganic carbon ( CO2) and creates the organic sugars it needs. Algae does incorporate inorganic nitrogen and inorganic phosphate along with the organic carbon it produces via photosynthesis in its tissue mass as it grows. Most living things in marine environs have a ratio of (C)carbon
N)nitrogenP) phosphorous in their tissue approximating 116 C: 16N:1P(see Redfeild ratio). Algae puts out exudate which contains nitrogen,phosphorous and organic carbon and also puts out spores. It will also dump back C N and P if it decays in the tank or sump/refugium.
The uptake of nitrate(NO3) and phosphate(PO4) by the growing algae should more than offset the N and P in the algal exudate in a well harvested and and/or siphoned algal scrubber or macro algae refugium.
However,since the algae does not take up any organic carbon but converts inorganic carbon (CO2) via photosynthesis that which it exudes adds to the total organic carbon(TOC) of the tank. So absent export strategies( gac, skimming, ozone, etc) unless a massive system with large water changes is in play, TOC can build up from food, coral slime and the waste products of other photosynthetic organisms including algae and do harm.
Studies over the past couple of years have linked high TOC to coral mortality. It is thought that the excess organic carbon may skew bacteria balances toward pathogenic to the detriment of the coral's symbiotic relationship with certain bacteria.
Skimmers remove organics that have both hydrophyllic(drawn to water) and hydrophobic(repelled by water) molecues since these types of molecular chains are attracted to the air water interface. Skimming also affords enhanced gas exchange and pushes out some particulate organic material and some precipitants.
GAC it seems is even more effective than skimming at removing organics particularly when combined with ozone which breaks up organic chains perhaps increasing their affinity to GAC absorbtion. Skimming also offers enhanced gas exchange and pushes out some particulate organic and precipitant matter.
Managing nutrients in a reef tank is not just about managing nitrogen ( NH3/4, NO2,NO3,etc ) and inorganic phosphate(PO4 species) although keeping low levels is important and readily measurable. TOC must be limited as well even though measurement is not available in the hobby as it requires some rather sophisticated scientific equipment. Even though it can't be measured in your tank organic carbon is there even when the water isn't yellow and export strategies ( skimmers, GAC, puigen, ozone..)are necessary ,in my opinion, particularly if you want to keep high reef animals like sps and most lps.
FWIW, do keep one tank skimmerless( well it might as well be so since I only use a Red Sea hang on which does very little l). It's a 65 gallon which houses some non reef safe fishes that I had to have and a bunch of leather corals , discoma , rhodactis,xenia and other things that generally come from relatively high nutrient turbid waters. I do. however ,use purigen, and gac via canister filter on this tank. After about 2 years all the critters are flourishing.
and inorganic phosphate if they are well manged . I use them. They do not , however, remove harmful organics(dissolved or undissolved); they actually produce them.
Organics are molecules which contain H(hydrogen) and C(carbon) along with a myriad of other things.
GAC (granulated activated carbon ) and resins such as purigen do remove organics as do skimmers but only those organic chains with an affinity for the resin, gac and/or air water interface of the skimmer. Managing total organic carbon(TOC) beyond just water clarity is a challenging rather new task in the hobby.
Algae uses inorganic carbon ( CO2) and creates the organic sugars it needs. Algae does incorporate inorganic nitrogen and inorganic phosphate along with the organic carbon it produces via photosynthesis in its tissue mass as it grows. Most living things in marine environs have a ratio of (C)carbon
N)nitrogenP) phosphorous in their tissue approximating 116 C: 16N:1P(see Redfeild ratio). Algae puts out exudate which contains nitrogen,phosphorous and organic carbon and also puts out spores. It will also dump back C N and P if it decays in the tank or sump/refugium.The uptake of nitrate(NO3) and phosphate(PO4) by the growing algae should more than offset the N and P in the algal exudate in a well harvested and and/or siphoned algal scrubber or macro algae refugium.
However,since the algae does not take up any organic carbon but converts inorganic carbon (CO2) via photosynthesis that which it exudes adds to the total organic carbon(TOC) of the tank. So absent export strategies( gac, skimming, ozone, etc) unless a massive system with large water changes is in play, TOC can build up from food, coral slime and the waste products of other photosynthetic organisms including algae and do harm.
Studies over the past couple of years have linked high TOC to coral mortality. It is thought that the excess organic carbon may skew bacteria balances toward pathogenic to the detriment of the coral's symbiotic relationship with certain bacteria.
Skimmers remove organics that have both hydrophyllic(drawn to water) and hydrophobic(repelled by water) molecues since these types of molecular chains are attracted to the air water interface. Skimming also affords enhanced gas exchange and pushes out some particulate organic material and some precipitants.
GAC it seems is even more effective than skimming at removing organics particularly when combined with ozone which breaks up organic chains perhaps increasing their affinity to GAC absorbtion. Skimming also offers enhanced gas exchange and pushes out some particulate organic and precipitant matter.
Managing nutrients in a reef tank is not just about managing nitrogen ( NH3/4, NO2,NO3,etc ) and inorganic phosphate(PO4 species) although keeping low levels is important and readily measurable. TOC must be limited as well even though measurement is not available in the hobby as it requires some rather sophisticated scientific equipment. Even though it can't be measured in your tank organic carbon is there even when the water isn't yellow and export strategies ( skimmers, GAC, puigen, ozone..)are necessary ,in my opinion, particularly if you want to keep high reef animals like sps and most lps.
FWIW, do keep one tank skimmerless( well it might as well be so since I only use a Red Sea hang on which does very little l). It's a 65 gallon which houses some non reef safe fishes that I had to have and a bunch of leather corals , discoma , rhodactis,xenia and other things that generally come from relatively high nutrient turbid waters. I do. however ,use purigen, and gac via canister filter on this tank. After about 2 years all the critters are flourishing.
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