Swanwillow
goby girl
so, what does all of that sand-moving powerhead stuff have to do with going skimmerless? other than yes, you need flow...
Skimmerless
- Thread starter Crawdad1
- Start date
physicslord
New member
Ever see a sand dune? They move with the slightest wind.
Geez!
Geez!
physicslord
New member
Not you Swanwillow, the previous posts.
piercho
New member
In a square box, fine substrates will blow around at fairly low flow velocities, no matter how you arrange it. I don't know why it needs to be discussed because that is the way it is.
From experience: you can keep stony corals for years in a tank with no appreciable live rock. The only "rock" in my current tank is concrete. When I get the next tank going I plan to epoxy what coral (except Cycloseris, etc) I have to the back and side walls and leave the entire sand bed open. At about year 1.5 of this tank I placed a little live rock in the sump and was blessed with such rewards as bubble algae, red flatworms, hydroids, fan worms that wind through branching coral, etc. So, not a fan of "live rock". IMO itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the equivalent of a snot-covered plush toy that gets passed around at daycare. Except, instead of germs, its every pest that can propagate itself in the dealer's holding tanks.
With imports of wild sand, unfiltered SW, and plants into this tank, I didn't need to seed my alga scrubber when I ran one for several months. I liked the scrubber, and in my setup considered it more effective than any skimming arrangement I tried. Since I had to break down for a move I've been using a simple vegetative filter with macros, but an alga scrubber is central to the concept of the next tank.
All that said, there are many tanks that I like a lot that just use live rock, an effective skimmer, and a butt-ton of flow. With what I'm trying to do, which is more of a sand bed abutting the edge of a patch reef, I personally like a setup that doesn't place much reliance on skimming.
From experience: you can keep stony corals for years in a tank with no appreciable live rock. The only "rock" in my current tank is concrete. When I get the next tank going I plan to epoxy what coral (except Cycloseris, etc) I have to the back and side walls and leave the entire sand bed open. At about year 1.5 of this tank I placed a little live rock in the sump and was blessed with such rewards as bubble algae, red flatworms, hydroids, fan worms that wind through branching coral, etc. So, not a fan of "live rock". IMO itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the equivalent of a snot-covered plush toy that gets passed around at daycare. Except, instead of germs, its every pest that can propagate itself in the dealer's holding tanks.
With imports of wild sand, unfiltered SW, and plants into this tank, I didn't need to seed my alga scrubber when I ran one for several months. I liked the scrubber, and in my setup considered it more effective than any skimming arrangement I tried. Since I had to break down for a move I've been using a simple vegetative filter with macros, but an alga scrubber is central to the concept of the next tank.
All that said, there are many tanks that I like a lot that just use live rock, an effective skimmer, and a butt-ton of flow. With what I'm trying to do, which is more of a sand bed abutting the edge of a patch reef, I personally like a setup that doesn't place much reliance on skimming.
Swanwillow
goby girl
i really like your idea piercho... epoxy-ing corals to the sides, instead of having lots of LR!!!
and physicslord...
and physicslord...
Flatlander
Premium Member
I always wanted to do a Jaubert style tank, with no rock and attach different sps around the glass.
piercho
New member
My "spontaneous" scrubber was dominated by finely filamented greens and needed scraping every 2-3 weeks, so maybe a cultured seed screen might have helped establish better and more competetive alga.
Doug, I think you should start that RIGHT NOW and thoroughly document your experience - so others (me) will have a less steep learning curve!
Flatlander
Premium Member
piercho said:
I will get at that right away. With no rock or little rock, the demand for calcium from coralline should be much lower. Could the rock not be kept in ones sump for additional filtration and use no light to promote coralline growth?
Wonder if I should run my turf scrubber on the sump or if, as some have said, it will take away from the filtration capabilities of the plenum. I dont agree with that by the way. Likely better to run a decent skimmer in the sump with the rock instead.
piercho
New member
I kept my rock in the sump but with a 250W EYE DL bulb on an inverse cycle. I ditched all the rock during the frenzy of house moving. My sump is a vegatative filter and I found it easier to grow and harvest macros with no rock. You get better circulation through the algae with no rock and clingy alga are easier to scrape off of the plastic walls/bottom than to pull off of rock. No rock also makes it easier to siphon out the mulm that accumulates in the eddies.
If I were to tinker with rock in the sump it would be to cultivate cyptic creatures (sponges) in low light/ low flow areas. I did get exportable masses of sponge growing on the rock in some low flow areas of the sump. But I don't know how the amount of export from sponge compared to the amount of export from plants. I think I got a lot more export from plants but didn't save my export for a dry weight comparison.
If I were to tinker with rock in the sump it would be to cultivate cyptic creatures (sponges) in low light/ low flow areas. I did get exportable masses of sponge growing on the rock in some low flow areas of the sump. But I don't know how the amount of export from sponge compared to the amount of export from plants. I think I got a lot more export from plants but didn't save my export for a dry weight comparison.
If I am considering setting up a skimmerless tank. Are there certain corals, fish or inverts that I should potentially put on my stocking list to help to absorb the "increased" nutrients from not skimming?
I just went to a friends Thanksgiving party and he has a bunch of tanks and only one with a skimmer. I must say they are some of the best looking tanks I have ever seen. I think there must be something with going skimmerless.
How often and what percentage of water changes does everyone do that is skimmerless?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Chris
I just went to a friends Thanksgiving party and he has a bunch of tanks and only one with a skimmer. I must say they are some of the best looking tanks I have ever seen. I think there must be something with going skimmerless.
How often and what percentage of water changes does everyone do that is skimmerless?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Chris
Sihaya,
I have thought long and hard about doing a refugium or ATS, but I really want to make my tank low tech and hopefully also low maintence; however, maybe I need a refugium to do some sort of export. But I really like the idea of no sump, no skimmer, lots of water flow, and good lights. I know I may pay in increased water changes, but that may be cheaper and easier than the increased cost of buying skimmers, sumps, refugiums. Not to mention skimmers and refugiums have to have maintence also.
Is my dream crazy?
Thanks,
Chris
I have thought long and hard about doing a refugium or ATS, but I really want to make my tank low tech and hopefully also low maintence; however, maybe I need a refugium to do some sort of export. But I really like the idea of no sump, no skimmer, lots of water flow, and good lights. I know I may pay in increased water changes, but that may be cheaper and easier than the increased cost of buying skimmers, sumps, refugiums. Not to mention skimmers and refugiums have to have maintence also.
Is my dream crazy?
Thanks,
Chris
sihaya
In Memoriam
Refugiums don't have to be expensive or high maintenance. I built mine with just a 29g tank, spare magnum parts and a rio pump. And, trust me, I'm not that good at this stuff.
The best reefers I know hardly spend a fraction of the money most reefers spend on their tanks. The guy who introduced me to all this didn't use a sump or skimmer or any expensive equipment on his tank. All he had was a refugium that was nearly the same size as his display tank with a DSB and tons of algae. He used to say "the best filter for your tank is... well, another tank."
You can get a lot of good ideas just browsing RC... have fun.
The best reefers I know hardly spend a fraction of the money most reefers spend on their tanks. The guy who introduced me to all this didn't use a sump or skimmer or any expensive equipment on his tank. All he had was a refugium that was nearly the same size as his display tank with a DSB and tons of algae. He used to say "the best filter for your tank is... well, another tank."
You can get a lot of good ideas just browsing RC... have fun.
sihaya
In Memoriam
As greenbean36191 (Mike) likes to remind people... "Reefs ARE algal driven systems! 80% of the biomass on a healthy reef is algae."
And yet, everyone is trying so hard to get algae out of their tanks. But, I know, it can grow up on corals and cause problems... but that's why I think people should have big algae filled refugiums. You gotta have algae somewhere... so if it's not in the display, I think it would have to be somewhere else. Right? I mean, if you're trying to recreate an ecosystem, how could you take out such a huge part of it?
And yet, everyone is trying so hard to get algae out of their tanks. But, I know, it can grow up on corals and cause problems... but that's why I think people should have big algae filled refugiums. You gotta have algae somewhere... so if it's not in the display, I think it would have to be somewhere else. Right? I mean, if you're trying to recreate an ecosystem, how could you take out such a huge part of it?
piercho
New member
Of large, showy animals, Tridacnid clams process a lot of water, filtering out particulate as they do. For the most part, filtering invertebrates are small incidentals brought in with live sand or rock.
I doubt that you will find any consistency, there. I exchange as much water as I can with NSW, but only 2 to 4 times a year. Some people make weekly exchanges of a small percent of the tank volume. And there is every combination in between.
IMHO, I've arrived at the conclusion that the "simplist" arrangement is to get a tank with a built-in overflow and plumb in a sump.
sihaya
In Memoriam
And a sump can just be another tank I think...
But I have a story about setting up a refugium. Once I was desparately trying to adjust nobs and things so that water out = water in... So, I pick what I think is a small patch of coraline algae growing on a wire as a reference (to see if the water level is moving). After like, hours, with seemingly no luck... it dawns on me that maybe that little patch of purple I was using as a reference is moving. Turns out that that coraline algae was actually growing on the back of a crawling snail. I can't tell you how smart that made me feel! (but at least now I know why Eric likes Sharpie pens so much!)
skimmy
T3am Zissou
i used to run skimmerless tanks all the time... just fine for softies and even alot of lps. i think it just means more work for the aquarist, more water changes, manual cleaning and detritus removal, use of refugiums/algae, and lots of carbon. ro water is a must i would say, too. now i love acro so much i cant do skimmerless tanks, so i am an admitted skimmer freak these days.
years ago i had a little caluerpa in my skimmerless tank on the sand growing up about 1/2" when i left for vacation to mexico for 10 days. it was a cute little "lawn" if i kept it trimmed. my friend feeding the tank accidentally left the light on most of the time, here is what i came home to:
there were so many mysids/pods/amphs i felt bad taking it out...:mixed:
years ago i had a little caluerpa in my skimmerless tank on the sand growing up about 1/2" when i left for vacation to mexico for 10 days. it was a cute little "lawn" if i kept it trimmed. my friend feeding the tank accidentally left the light on most of the time, here is what i came home to:
there were so many mysids/pods/amphs i felt bad taking it out...:mixed:
Flatlander
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10991493#post10991493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by koraltek
i used to run skimmerless tanks all the time... just fine for softies and even alot of lps. i think it just means more work for the aquarist, more water changes, manual cleaning and detritus removal, use of refugiums/algae, and lots of carbon. ro water is a must i would say, too. now i love acro so much i cant do skimmerless tanks, so i am an admitted skimmer freak these days.
years ago i had a little caluerpa in my skimmerless tank on the sand growing up about 1/2" when i left for vacation to mexico for 10 days. it was a cute little "lawn" if i kept it trimmed. my friend feeding the tank accidentally left the light on most of the time, here is what i came home to:
there were so many mysids/pods/amphs i felt bad taking it out...:mixed:
Whoa. Neat pic.
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