BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Did I miss something?
Splitting Carpet Anemonies
- Thread starter ilvfsh
- Start date
Did I miss something?
OrionN
Moved on
Several people here on Reef Central have had Gigantea that show evidence of been cut and survived. There are Gigantea that accidently got torn and survived.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Minh you should know better than anyone that a gigantea that shows some prior injury is not proof of asexual reproduction of any kind. Animals can get injured and can recover from horrific damage - but that is very different from cutting an animal in half and having both halves survive. Maybe they were injured during collection? Who knows?
As long as we DON'T know it is better to rely on what we DO know - that there is not ONE SINGLE DOCUMENTED CASE of a S. gigantea being cut in half where EITHER half survived. We have certainly witnessed lots of people trying. Zero success.
I'm only half joking when I say apply the dog analogy. Dogs have been horrifically injured, crushed, torn, cut, you name it, and they have eventually survived. No one would argue though, that just because you can cut a dog and have it live, that there is any reason to believe you could cut a dog IN HALF and have it live and end up with two dogs. It is nonsensical.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
It appears that the ethical line to culture gigs is very hard to draw. On the one hand you have a precedent of BTAs making it through cuts and on the other hand you have very limited (if any) evidence of Stichodactyla anemone propagation. Tough call because it would be thrilling to see fragged carpet anemones surviving long term but how to get there is a very difficult path to figure out and I'm not ready to take a strong stand on either side of the issue just yet. You never want to give up on innovation and discovery if there is even a small chance of it going anywhere.
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
Right now I don't think it's an ethical boundary, I think it's simply science. BTA's and Magnifica anemones are the only two hosting anemones that reproduce by asexual reproduction. I think our efforts are better put forth towards figuring out how to sexually reproduce anemones.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Just because you wish for something doesn't mean it is possible.
Let me ask a question. How many S. gigantea would you need to see cut in half and killed before you said "maybe we should try something else"?
50? 100? 1000?
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BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Exactly.
I have a koi pond. I don't think you can chop a koi in half and have both halves survive, but I have never tried. Rather, I know that a mature female koi produces 100,000 eggs per kilogram of body weight. I have some koi that weigh over 10 pounds. If you want to see a large number of something, see a breeding pool after a large female koi has spawned in it. A half million baby koi is a lot.
Now imagine if we could figure out how to do the same with S. gigantea. Would you rather chop your gigantea in half with a 1% chance that either half might survive? Or would you rather get your gigantea to spawn and leave you with 1000 babies... and do it over and over and over every month. You decide...
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CoralsAddiction
Active member
Both. We put 25-30 gigs under lab conditions for propagation. We also put 30-40 of them for sexual reproductive experience. Each experiment must be well documented and improved. Again, I would only support something like that in real laboratories under supervision of marine biologists instead of hobby experiments. If takes that many anemones to potentially discover "the cure" then I am all for it than losing gigs in transship, whole sale, LFS and hobbyist aquariums without any end of it in sight. In other words the real motive here is to stop or limit the collection of anemones without banning their sales outright.
If anyone has a better alternative please share your opinions
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CoralsAddiction
Active member
And if the numbers I provided above look high just think of how many gigs we, as human beings, kill every month (not even talking about years) for no other purpose than just having them in our displays.
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
I would just be happy with something well documented that can then be (potentially) replicated. I don't know why no one is attempting to sexually reproduce the high priced gigs and haddonis. Maybe they are... I can imagine you would need a very well thought out system.
Perhaps these anemones are too niche.
Perhaps these anemones are too niche.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
…well funded systems and highly trained individuals. Can't have a bunch of ignorant hobbyists randomly splitting anemones like its a piece of cake. Well funded and highly trained individuals is what's probably an issue. Not sure who or what would want to finance such an endeavor. National Science Foundation awarded $850,000 to Dr. Robert Drew to study clownfish/anemone symbiosis. I am sure studying anemone reproduction would take a lot more money than that.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
In general, as far as your first suggestion goes, I would think we would want to have some inkling that there was a chance of success before we started killing anemones just to satisfy our curiosity.
As far as the second, Dr. Anna Scott, who wrote the scientific papers on sexual reproduction (and rearing) of E. quadricolor and H. crispa, once asked me if I wanted to fund a similar study for S. gigantea. I thought she was joking at the time, but I could always ask her a ballpark figure. I'll shoot her an email.
Newly settled H. crispa
H. crispa early development
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Bingo. Development will have to come from hobbyists because there is very little money in carpet anemone propagation from an industry standpoint.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
That's why I cited the success of BTA propagation. Not same anemone but generally the precedent is there. And remember, its not mere curiosity. It's an attempt to improve the hobby and to minimize collection from the reefs. I said that in my post too.
And like with most other ventures, risks must be taken. I wish I could have my cake and eat it too but that's not realistic. Someone must start the blueprint for others to use as guidance. Anyway, none of this will probably matter as this study would be very expensive.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Ok I sent her an email, we'll see what she says.
By the way, you might enjoy reading her newest paper:
Asexual Propagation of Sea Anemones That Host Anemonefishes: Implications for the Marine Ornamental Aquarium Trade and Restocking Programs
By the way, you might enjoy reading her newest paper:
Asexual Propagation of Sea Anemones That Host Anemonefishes: Implications for the Marine Ornamental Aquarium Trade and Restocking Programs
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BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Quote of the day from the above study:
It is important to recognise that the findings of this study relating to survival might not apply to all sea anemone species. In anemones that use fission as a reproductive mode, wound healing and regeneration occur by rapid cell proliferation at the wound site [31]. Species that do not naturally asexually reproduce may not have this capacity, and therefore may not be able to recover from cutting.
It is important to recognise that the findings of this study relating to survival might not apply to all sea anemone species. In anemones that use fission as a reproductive mode, wound healing and regeneration occur by rapid cell proliferation at the wound site [31]. Species that do not naturally asexually reproduce may not have this capacity, and therefore may not be able to recover from cutting.
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D-Nak
Active member
Okay, in all seriousness, asexual reproduction is clearly not a viable option. Just so I am clear...
YOU CANNOT FORCE PROPAGATE S. GIGANTEA WITH GUARANTEED SUCCESS.
Sexual reproduction of gigantea in a captive environment is not an easy feat -- otherwise it would've been done already. There have been recorded instances of gigantea spawning. We see males stress spawning all the time. We've even seen females expel what appear to be baby anemones. We've even seen quite a few small gigantea (under 3") in the past year or so, so we know that there are such things as "juvenile" gigantea which can support sexual reproduction (I don't think reproduction via pedal laceration is possible, nor do they create "buds").
What we need to keep in mind is that it's only been a couple of years since where we've been able to acclimate gigantea into our home aquariums with any sort of success. Prior to this, it was rare for someone to have two gigantea. Now, many of us have multiple gigs. A resident hobbyist anemone expert who has since retired from anemones had broodstock for many years kept in optimal conditions, and she was unable to get them to spawn.
All that said, I think it's just a matter of time before we see baby gigantea.
YOU CANNOT FORCE PROPAGATE S. GIGANTEA WITH GUARANTEED SUCCESS.
Sexual reproduction of gigantea in a captive environment is not an easy feat -- otherwise it would've been done already. There have been recorded instances of gigantea spawning. We see males stress spawning all the time. We've even seen females expel what appear to be baby anemones. We've even seen quite a few small gigantea (under 3") in the past year or so, so we know that there are such things as "juvenile" gigantea which can support sexual reproduction (I don't think reproduction via pedal laceration is possible, nor do they create "buds").
What we need to keep in mind is that it's only been a couple of years since where we've been able to acclimate gigantea into our home aquariums with any sort of success. Prior to this, it was rare for someone to have two gigantea. Now, many of us have multiple gigs. A resident hobbyist anemone expert who has since retired from anemones had broodstock for many years kept in optimal conditions, and she was unable to get them to spawn.
All that said, I think it's just a matter of time before we see baby gigantea.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
That would be awesome regardless of how it happens. Imagine getting tank bred gigs the same way we get clams from ORA"¦wow.
