SPS - MH or LED? Real World Theory

[jda]

As for the experiment. I cut 2 fresh frags from the large-enough corals in my display and mounted them on clean frag plugs. I put one on each side in somewhat of the same placement under the light. Then, I waited. The clean frag plugs helped to see encrusting growth and you could just see the two frags side-by-side (in between the plywood) for results.

I used 3 different panels. When I switched panels, I swapped the frags. The previous MH side always got worse looking and the LED side got better.

Growth was never really an issue for the ones that grew. Some really suffered with the whites up too high (which I think that we can skip here). and nearly died. Color was the main issue once I got the white lower.

I used Razor, Sol and Radion. I had a Kessil for like 1 day, but hated the spread and shadowing. I used each of the others for about 2 months - 3 on the Radion. Colors were low on the white and high on the blue - around 30/100 IIRC.

 

[tdb320reef]

Your experiment looks good. Like others have said, keep the light from bleeding over. I cut a 3/8" piece of plywood when I did it.

As for the cost, I can probably make a pretty good case that the cost will be about equal, or the MH even better, if you can provide the following:

How long is your 320G - actually LxWxH would be really cool? How many panels do you have on there now? What are the wattages? Run them at about 75% all-in? What is the cost of what you would replace them with right now (need to project for replacements in 2-4 years, if not sooner).

Can you keep your tank cool? Most large tanks can stay cool, and I assume that you can.

I run my LEDS at 100% blue and 15 % white X 12 fixtures. On my apex they are drawing about 6.5 amps.

But to be honest. Call me an 80's kid but I like my LED blue so what I would prob do is over each of the 4 sections run a led panel in the back then the MH radium then another led panel pictured below lol. The tank is 96X30X26D

Yes I have a Aqualogic 1/3rd plumbed in it draws 8 amps when running.

 

[tdb320reef]

As for the experiment. I cut 2 fresh frags from the large-enough corals in my display and mounted them on clean frag plugs. I put one on each side in somewhat of the same placement under the light. Then, I waited. The clean frag plugs helped to see encrusting growth and you could just see the two frags side-by-side (in between the plywood) for results.

I used 3 different panels. When I switched panels, I swapped the frags. The previous MH side always got worse looking and the LED side got better.

Growth was never really an issue for the ones that grew. Some really suffered with the whites up too high (which I think that we can skip here). and nearly died. Color was the main issue once I got the white lower.

I used Razor, Sol and Radion. I had a Kessil for like 1 day, but hated the spread and shadowing. I used each of the others for about 2 months - 3 on the Radion. Colors were low on the white and high on the blue - around 30/100 IIRC.

Great Ideas. Good move on the Kessils, I have a couple friends that brought their 350's over. We did some par tests and had a really good laugh compared to my D120. They ended up swapping that out with The D120's that I am running and since then purchased several more as I order them directly from china.

It is going to take a few weeks to start the testing as I am swapping out 3 part for a Geo 624 on the frag system. Want it to stabilize before dividing it up.

 

[marinemanohio]

I'm hearing more and more people say the the whites in LEDs are actually the problem, and it seems more and more people and companies are steering away from whites entirely. Look at the new Radion Pros (and others) that don't even use true white. They use red, green, and amber instead. Supposedly, according to research I'm not going to bother looking up at the moment (sorry guys!), this will allow better coral growth and color by using less wattage. I'll report back when I get the LEDs I just had built, which use very little white. This LED movement is changing every day...

 

[tdb320reef]

I'm hearing more and more people say the the whites in LEDs are actually the problem, and it seems more and more people and companies are steering away from whites entirely. Look at the new Radion Pros (and others) that don't even use true white. They use red, green, and amber instead. Supposedly, according to research I'm not going to bother looking up at the moment (sorry guys!), this will allow better coral growth and color by using less wattage. I'll report back when I get the LEDs I just had built, which use very little white. This LED movement is changing every day...

I did build a sample LED fixture for an old 48 X 24 frag tank and I absolutely hated the results. I had the equipment to build a big one for my big tank and ended up selling everything off.

Running too much white is nothing new. When I had a 48" 8 bulb t5 and ran two ATI specials 25% I hated the color and the corals would not be as vivid. to solve this I would run 6 Blue + 1 purple + and one special. Considering that the special is considered 10-12K that is the only "white" source in my favorite t5 layout. so 1 white source out of 8 T5's is effectively 12.5% which is where I keep my white channel on my LEDS. Not to promote t5's and to be honest they are my least favorite of all of them but I did like the color output for sure.

Unless your are clustering your LEDS you may not be happy with the results. I found the value fixtures from a density standpoint will offer much more leds at a much higher par at a much cheaper cost. Furthermore I took a huge lose selling my DIY fixture opposed to the estimated 80% residual value on these commodity fixtures.

 

[animalkingdom]

tdb...i just noticed you hanging your light from the same wire shelves I use to hang my lights...got a kick out of that
also i'd lower them radiums down...maybe in the 16''-20'' range

 

[jda]

I guess that a CBA won't help much since you already have the panels, but I can cover my 8' tank with 3x250W HQI and I was going to buy 9 $450 120W panels to do the same thing. The electricity was going to be about same, but the start up and replacement costs were WAY more for the panels - I figured a 3 year effective life of the panels before the new ones were so much better that I wanted to change. I do use the phoenix bulbs for 24 months. Anyway, on big tanks, where MH and GOOD reflectors can cover an area that you might need 2-4 panels to cover, you can make a case that MH are cheaper, or a push. The cost savings are just not there if you have a reasonable-for-the-year life on the panels... which is what in 2013? 3 years about right at the current rate of advance? I have also found that you can get CHEAP high-quality MH setups from reefers going to LED or getting out.

Personally, I would use the 20K Radiums alone and sell the panels, but I don't care for dusk/dawn, thunderstorms and the like. I think that the Radiums are awesome all by themselves. I don't think that many will argue that the coral need the Radiums to be supplemented.

Send me a PM if you need help with the reactor. I have used them for 15, or more, years and can typically help somebody over the phone in no time.

As far as experiments, if you are going to go all the way, then if you do lock down some VHO super actinics, then check out those dudes with some 10K XM (or the like) bulbs - super awesome color and growth. I will warn you not to setup the VHO Super Actinics, though, unless you plan to keep them - nothing makes a coral look like those do.

The best corals to test are those that contrast. Ice Fire, Flaming Yellow Orchid, Gonzos Raspberry Lemonaide, GC Ultimate Stag, Lime in the Sky, Pinky the Bear. Also, the corals with three or more colors like Joe the Acro, Rainbow Delight, etc. This is where I found the halides to really shine over the LED - the differences in the contrasting colors was just more.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Just out of curiosity can you post a picture with just the center light on and then one with the LEDs on. I would like to see the differeance between the light output and the area it covers.

 

[jda]

One last thing, if you wanted to experiment even more, and then I will shut up...

If you can believe this article (who knows?) that corals do indeed develop pigments to stave off excess UV, then it is possible that corals look better with UV present even if they don't use it. Yes, the water filters the UV at depth, but we are talking about 2" to 2' of water here, not ocean depth where most UV is gone in 6-8 feet. A 20K radium will put out spectrum from 350-400 at the same intensity as it does 500+ (roughly), so I think that it does get to the corals in some amount. ...so if you can find some UV LEDs from 350-400, perhaps the coral will develop these pigments and look better. ...or, maybe the article is a bunch of bunk.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=274

I am excited for your tests. I love doing this stuff at my house, but I am equally excited to just watch.

 

[tdb320reef]

tdb...i just noticed you hanging your light from the same wire shelves I use to hang my lights...got a kick out of that
also i'd lower them radiums down...maybe in the 16''-20'' range

Yes I got the Idea from one of these threads... maybe it was yours! I just measured it is about 20 " I am getting 500 at the surface and over 300 at the egg crate.

 

[tdb320reef]

Double Post

 

[tdb320reef]

I guess that a CBA won't help much since you already have the panels, but I can cover my 8' tank with 3x250W HQI and I was going to buy 9 $450 120W panels to do the same thing. The electricity was going to be about same, but the start up and replacement costs were WAY more for the panels - I figured a 3 year effective life of the panels before the new ones were so much better that I wanted to change. I do use the phoenix bulbs for 24 months. Anyway, on big tanks, where MH and GOOD reflectors can cover an area that you might need 2-4 panels to cover, you can make a case that MH are cheaper, or a push. The cost savings are just not there if you have a reasonable-for-the-year life on the panels... which is what in 2013? 3 years about right at the current rate of advance? I have also found that you can get CHEAP high-quality MH setups from reefers going to LED or getting out.

Personally, I would use the 20K Radiums alone and sell the panels, but I don't care for dusk/dawn, thunderstorms and the like. I think that the Radiums are awesome all by themselves. I don't think that many will argue that the coral need the Radiums to be supplemented.

Send me a PM if you need help with the reactor. I have used them for 15, or more, years and can typically help somebody over the phone in no time.

As far as experiments, if you are going to go all the way, then if you do lock down some VHO super actinics, then check out those dudes with some 10K XM (or the like) bulbs - super awesome color and growth. I will warn you not to setup the VHO Super Actinics, though, unless you plan to keep them - nothing makes a coral look like those do.

The best corals to test are those that contrast. Ice Fire, Flaming Yellow Orchid, Gonzos Raspberry Lemonaide, GC Ultimate Stag, Lime in the Sky, Pinky the Bear. Also, the corals with three or more colors like Joe the Acro, Rainbow Delight, etc. This is where I found the halides to really shine over the LED - the differences in the contrasting colors was just more.

Believe me the CBA is realized with LEDS. What is even more important is significantly reduced TCO. The $450 panels would have been a waste which is why I push the value Evergrow fixtures and IMO just as good as anything on the market and I get them $120 each. Another thing you have to consider is the residual resale value. The net cost for these used MH fixtures were $100 in frags. I am on my 3rd or 4th generation of leds and keep about 80% of my original investment. I ran some group buys where I got a few panels for free. I don’t think we can ever say Mh is better from a cost standpoint no matter how you dice it. But from a performance it is superior.

I don’t do the dusk/dawn/thunderstorm thing but do have my Blues come on a few hours before and after. Blue light makes my GF frisky…. But I would keep the panels on the system angled toward the center to compliment the 20K Radium if I go that route.

I got the Reactor up and running. I was surprised to see a uniseal at the bottom that was leaking. A new uniseal and some silicone and it is up and running. Ill let it run for about a week then turn the Co2 on. Thanks for the offer. The reactor is defiantly good quality besides the uniseal that is. Thanks for the offer!

I did the whole T12-T5 and just don’t think I can ever go back. I really hate paying for those bulbs. But never say never right. I never thought I’d be hanging MH back up either.

Thanks for the coral list believe it or not I don’t have any of them. If you decide to part with a pack let me know and Ill buy them off of you if you have them.

Thanks!

 

[tdb320reef]

Just out of curiosity can you post a picture with just the center light on and then one with the LEDs on. I would like to see the differeance between the light output and the area it covers.

The MH is off for the night but Ill break out the camera tomorrow. Unfortunately with white balance you prob will not notice the difference but I can tell you that the MH looks so chrisp almost like the corals are glowing. When I turn my leds up is has a lot of redish/yellow and is much more mute. It seems to highlight the algae in the eggcrate system. if I turn down the whites the corals look better but now you have mainly blueish light.

 

[trueblackpercula]

The MH is off for the night but Ill break out the camera tomorrow. Unfortunately with white balance you prob will not notice the difference but I can tell you that the MH looks so chrisp almost like the corals are glowing. When I turn my leds up is has a lot of redish/yellow and is much more mute. It seems to highlight the algae in the eggcrate system. if I turn down the whites the corals look better but now you have mainly blueish light.

Ok great and thanks for the offer,

 

[Boston21]

Hella lot of light up on that Tub. Serious frag tank. Im tagging along for this experiment, should be interesting no doubt.

 

[tdb320reef]

Had the day off today to mess around. Can you believe that I fit them in there without removing any leds lol?

 

[jda]

You gonna turn the panels off in the middle to see the difference for a while, or just go straight to running them both?

I had no idea you could get that many light in a canopy.

 

[tdb320reef]

Omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These radium's with the LED Blues on are Sick. I ended up putting all three of them over the 320. If anyone sees a Lumen Max 2 and Blueline ballast out there LMK I need one more. I have never seen this tank so beautiful. The pictures do not do justice. My Yellows actually look yellow now. Ill break out the big camera later. I may just keep it this way!!!!!!!!!!

This is with 7 Evergrow 4 Apollo Leds and 3 250 Watt Radiums

 

[brad]

Can you update us on how many of each light (including individual LEDs) that you are now running?

 

[tdb320reef]

Can you update us on how many of each light (including individual LEDs) that you are now running?

This is with 7 Evergrow d120's 4 Apollo G2 Leds and 3 250 Watt Radiums