SPS PE and coloring

P

pascal32

New member
Realized today that my SPS colors have been fading a bit and the PE isn't as good as it used to be. Looking for some input on SPS coloring and possibly feeding.

system is a 120 with a basement sump and two frag tanks. total volume estimated at 175 gallons

I feed mostly pellet food via a feeder, its a rare occasion for anything to go uneaten. occasionally some mysis and spot feeding LPS with mix of cyclopeez, coral frenzy and oyster. Mysis are rinsed in tap water and soaked in selcon.

I'm very curious if I have VERY low nutrient as my PO4 is at 0.021, after leaving the BRS HC GFO in there for over 2-3 months.

fish: orange shoulder tang, yellow tang, (2) clown, coral beauty, hawk fish, (2) damsel

lighting:
display (2) DE 250 phoenix 14K about 12" off the water - 3 months old or so.
LPS frag tank 4X T5 2 feet up with 8" of water (orange digi in there as an experiment looks better than ever)
SPS frag tank 175 SE MH (recent addition - no data yet)

KH and Ca are dosed via dosing pumps
temp is very stable at 78.5
PH low is 8.2 at light

filtration:
skimmer is an octopus 200 with soda lime reactor
150 reactor with HC GFO (about 1.3 cups)
150 reactor with carbon (about 1.7 cups)

circulation:
reeflo hammer driving system, pretty good turnover all around
display has (2) koralia 1400 and (1) Koralia 1150

parameters:
KH 8.5 - salifert - (slowly raising back to 9.5)
Ph (probe) 8.2-8.4 (soda lime!)
Mg 1150 - elos - (first time this system has wanted Mg, just started dosing today)
Am - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ntrate - very low (won't read on API kit)
PO4 - 0.021 (hanna ULR)
salinity 35 PPT calibrated against 35PPT solution

thanks for any tips!
 
Pascal as you know im pretty new to sps.I dont know if any of this is really of any cause to your sps.Just some thoughts is all

I worry about aquariums with very low po4 ,no3. I should reword that to curious if running low levels with low food input might lead to more problems with metals.On a reef Po4 and no3 are very low but theres also a constant influx of particulate matter drifting in around and through the reef ,aka marine snow.See almost any ocean video and its unmistakable.So I think they get quite a bit of food.

The food=organics/protiens whitch can/do bind metals and alow them to be exported through skimming ,less feeding in a low nutrient system might not be a good.I believe the 2 part additives add metals,along with foods

I saw a response where tmz ,if Im not mistaken mentioned this metal and low nutrient.I think in his situation it was more on ozone use whitch he was conteplating on for similar reasons.That is if I interpreted him correctly.
Best if you get his input on this
In my very limited sps experience I notice they do appreciate feedings,I get ok color and growth is decent.
 
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Graves is on to something, IMO (as is Gary obviously). The trick is to have a lot of nutrients available consistently, but overall run a clean low nutrient system, if that makes sense.

Large feedings, with various substances. Cyclopeeze, brine, oyster eggs, etc. Heavy skimming, large water changes.

On a natural reef the current carries massive amounts of nutrients, but it also carries wastes and toxins away. Reproducing the former is easy enough, it's the latter that poses the challenge.
 
i laughed a little when i saw this thread pascal i have to admit lol

i know exactly what you are going threw. i know what u wanted earlier when u sent me a text, sorry man i was sleeping and forgot to get back to ya. ill call ya over teh holidays and we can chat
 
From reading for a while I do believe I have a low nutrient system. If I understand correctly (which is very debatable) this system has a higher susceptibility to alkalinity swings. also is the alkalinity were to be in the 9.5+ range I should have white growth tips where the tissue has a hard time keeping up (which i had in the past when i ran 10.5-11).

The greater concern (as mentioned by steve) is the possibility that metals are accumulating as there is very little to bond them to - this could be further compounded by heavy two part dosing which can possibly introduce more metals. I have had a poly pad in the sump left over from when i added the new frag tank and had a water clouding.

If I understand correctly if I continue doing everything the way i am, however increase feeding, the food will eventually start to convert to PO4 - which is where the next hurdling block lies. I just replaced by HC GFO - will this be countering the introduction of food?

What measurement should I be looking for to evaluate how "nutrient rich" the system is?

so how and what do you feed SPS?

should I be turning off powerheads? adding food into the sump to let it circulate?

phyto?

I'm planning on picking up to rotifiers tomorrow to add to the freezer - still working to convince the wife I should have my own shelf in the fridge i bought :)
 
Nitrates and Phosphates (Hanna) will give you an accurate reading of how 'nutrient rich' your system is. I used to try and maintain 0 No3 and 0.02-0.04Po4. I had the same issue awhile back and gradually increased the bioload a bit (as well as feeding) which really helped. I haven't seen him in a few months but I believe BluePhish did the same thing. In my opinion lowering (or discontinuing) the use of GFO will help significantly. HTH
 
great thread.

Cully knows what he's talking about.
Word of caution: low nutrients coupled with high alkalinity can produce sickly looking SPS. If SPS look increasingly worse as you raise dKH I'd discontinue boosting it.
 
Gary Majchrzak said:
great thread.

Cully knows what he's talking about.
Word of caution: low nutrients coupled with high alkalinity can produce sickly looking SPS. If SPS look increasingly worse as you raise dKH I'd discontinue boosting it.
Click to expand...


I'm on the same wavelength with you. Just cut back the dosing pumps. Kh about 9-9.2. Mg on the rise
 
Blurry I think with higher alk your refering to the burnt tips theory.As I understood its linked/related to low nutrient and "unstable alk" but its unproven beyond that to why or what else is in play.In other words,it hasn't been duplicated in any study that was carried out. Burt tips with just low nutrients and high alk hasn't been linked.I cant find the original post I was going to use from Highlander (cliff) from the chem forum but this is as close as I could find.

FWIW-Ijust shoot for NSW parameters around 8dkh and in no way am I saying anyone should maintain higher alk.Its just for reference is all.


10/24/2010, 02:04 AM #5
chris88
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alberta (canada)
Posts: 447 When dosing a carbon source it has been my experience that you should keep your alk from 6-8dkh and no higher or sps will go pale and lose color but growth will not be effected.





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10/24/2010, 08:26 AM #6
HighlandReefer
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist
Posts: 10,349 Quote:
Originally Posted by sneeyatch
I thought that the higher alkalinity caused by the kalk would cause burnt tips on SPS, etc.? I thought that the alkalinity needed to be maintained somewhere around NSW levels when using vodka?

I have not seen any scientific research that backs this statement. The research has found that increased alk levels increase the growth of sps coral skeletal growth with no adverse effects up to around 23 dKH where the scientists stopped. Personally I have tested this research and found it was correct in my tank up to around 16 dKH while dosing larger amounts of vinegar, with no negative effects on coral (except too much calcium carbonate precipitation on my tank glass and equipment). Only increased sps growth.

Many hobbyists report burnt tip problems with higher alk levels though.

When using kalk water, one needs to be careful and properly drip it. Saturated kalk water can raise your pH too much. Sudden higher pH level increases, especially above 8.5 can cause problems for coral (tissue necrosis or burnt tips). The same can occur when using sodium carbonate (baked baking soda).

Overdosing carbon sources like vodka does cause burnt tips and other types of tissue necrosis as well.

The alk supplements do contain contaminates like with mag supplements. So sources used by hobbyists which are industrial grade may have abnormally high levels of contaminates that could cause the burnt tips. Industrial grade soda ash comes to mind regarding this. We don't know what is used for alk supplements in the over the counter supplements since they don't provide details. The manufacturerers may go the cheap route and use industrial grade chemicals and not food grade.

Without proper scientific testing, there may be other factors or combinations of factors that cause the burnt tips in sps coral and not reasonable increases in alk or especially maintaining higher levels of alk.



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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 10/24/2010 at 08:41 AM.


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Last edited:
good stuff. Started increased feeding, about a shot glass twice a day mix of cyclopeeze, coral frenzy (a pinch), oyster eggs, and two cubes of rotifers.

Took some pictures, we'll see how things progress!
 
Gary Majchrzak said:
great thread.

Cully knows what he's talking about.
Word of caution: low nutrients coupled with high alkalinity can produce sickly looking SPS. If SPS look increasingly worse as you raise dKH I'd discontinue boosting it.
Click to expand...


Gary ,hey.
Just wanted to point out I wasnt disagreeing with you in case someone reading this thread gets the wrong idea.I know you already know this but thought it was worth mentioning.
I was refering to low nutrient as in inorganic form phosphate & Nitrate ,ect..
I agree low nutrient as in organic food causing sickly sps makes sense to me.
Pretty much what cully was saying above.
 
I dont know how much is to much to start.You might want to consider a poll and start with what you can take from it.To much to soon could be just as bad as a defiency.
It takes some time for the food to be broken down into inorganic forms of n & p so you maynot see it right away ,then start battling alage, brown corals or worse.

cully and gary to name a few have probably built up a bit slower to heavy feedings?
 
Thanks for all the advice, I probaly shouldn't overdo the new feeding cycle.

on other breaking news, I'm sure these pictures shed some light on my issues:
took another picture this morning. Think my corals have been hanging out with the wrong crowd:

Two months ago on the left, today on the right
comparison1217to1224sma.jpg


closeup:
closeupsmall800.jpg

dsc1296closeupwbsmall80.jpg



time to start interceptor treatment!
 
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