Surge systems, let me see them

[Dmorty217]

Im planning on a surge system for my next build (750g) and wanted to see people's surge systems. I am thinking of having two 55-75g tanks mounted above the water line of the new tank and having 2" or bigger PVC running into the tanks so when they get almost full it creates a syphon and will empty out the tanks and start it all over again. Would love to see some pics and some ideas if I'm leaving something out

 

[Dmorty217]

Alrighty then, guess surge systems aren't very popular

 

[TimmyD16]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388130&highlight=surge

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2386582&highlight=surge

Hope this starts to help.

 

[karimwassef]

I used a single 100 gallon and two cross-directed outlets with DIY PVC active surge actuators controlled by my Apex V1/2/3/4 with input from level sensors and a timing program.

Each surge generates about 20 gallons over 10 seconds with a frequency of about 3 minutes with an event that allows for both to happen at the same time every 20 minutes or so (40 gal surge).

Active surge allowed both the inlet and outlet to be permanently submerged = no bubbles. The surge sound was relatively low too (no flushing sound).

However.... My biggest learning had to do with the impact of the surge on the main tank overflow and sump. The surge initiates an overflow surge into the sump. That's where the bubbles and noise came from. I ended up using my end to end weir with a cascaded overflow PVC structure to minimize noise and bubbles.

Another learning. I sized my sump for a 10 gallon surge, but got greedy... Once I got 20 gallons to work in the main tank, I had to increase my sump capacity. I was our of room so I ended up adding a buffer sump tank to absorb the surge events.

It's doing very well and was pretty cheap.

 

[karimwassef]

I realize I never finished updating my build thread but here's where it ended up

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2229274&page=8

 

[Dmorty217]

I'm not worried much about the sound it will make, my tank is noisy now and it doesn't bother me. How many dedicated drains do you have to accommodate a 40g surge without overflowing the tank? The sumps area would be just as turbulent as the DT when the surge happens right? Sounds like I need to think out the sump design so my ATO is alarming every few mins. I plan on buying the Reeflo commercial 3hp pump for return, skimmer feed, surge feed,closed loop and any other reactors that may be put on. The pump is rated for 12,500gph and will have just the hight of the tank on the stand for head height.

 

[karimwassef]

My DT is 380gal (96" x 27" x 34"). I use four 2" overflow drain pipes at different levels in my internal overflow behind the weir.
During non-surge, only one operates. During the surge, all four run. My sump is also narrow: 24" wide. This creates another problem in managing the surge flow through the baffles - imagine multiple mini Niagara Falls and bubbles everywhere.

So, I diverted the high overflows to the buffer zone if my sump (final stage) which is also where my external buffer sump is plumbed.

Yes, my ATO runs on and off counter to the surge. It essentially runs on an inverse duty cycle from the surge timing.

 

[karimwassef]

Also, I used two separate pumps to isolate the normal flow loop from my surge loop. My normal flow loop has two outlets on opposite sides of the tank (cross-crossed with the two surge returns) and pass through a DIY PVC cyclical diverter to create a dual alternating sinusoidal flow from one side of the tank to the other. This creates a pseudo-random flow with irregular alternating surge pulses and alternating sinusoidal flows.

The surge and skimmer pump sits inside my overflow behind my weir since there's no need to go down to the sump if I'm going back up to the surge platform or skimmer inlet (12' skimmer).

 

[Dmorty217]

A lot of great info here, now sounds like I need to do some serious planning to get this right. When the surge isn't happening with the tank how far from the top is your normal water line? Then with the surge does it change at all or do the drains keep it steady no matter if it is a 20 or 40g surge? Do you have a YouTube video of your system in action? I feel like there is something I am missing in all of this?

 

[ca1ore]

Alrighty then, guess surge systems aren't very popular

I futzed around with all sorts of Rube Goldberg setups (toilet-style flusher, dump bucket, siphon vessel, actuated ball valves, etc.) before concluding that something like a Vortech pump is just as good, less messy and far less hassle.

 

[karimwassef]

The pumps are very expensive and consume a lot of power - IMHO.

If you have the room, nothing operates like an actuated surge.

The water level is usually about 3 inches below the top of the tank. During the dual surge, 40 gal, the water level goes up by 2.5" or so - even with an end to end weir. This is how I self limited my system through experimentation. My original dual 10 gal = 20 gal left me plenty of surge capacity. When I pushed it to 50 gallons, it overflowed a bit. The current state is safe and repeatable.

Even so, I added a DT max tank sensor at 0.5" that overrides the surge and closes the valves in case of an unexpected event.

I have leaky valves so there is always a little flow coming out of the surge outlets. This is intentional to keep the system fully primed at all times without bubbles - and discourage any animal obstruction.

 

[karimwassef]

My thread has some build videos but they're a little dated now. I'll make a new vid.

I also have the 3D model of my system there too. I know it deals with a lot of other extraneous content, but you can see the final surge setup in the drawings.

 

[karimwassef]

Personal comment on passive surges (toilet flushers): passive systems are easier but the results are terrible IMHO. They are noisy, messy, make bubbles and sound like a flushing toilet.

The single most important investment in my actuated system is my Apex. The little 10 line code I used was the key to success. It took a lot of calibrating for my system but it's rugged and runs like clockwork.

 

[fishgate]

Has anyone figured out how to integrate an ATO with a surge tank?

 

[karimwassef]

Why would you integrate an ATO (fresh water) with a surge tank (salt water)?

I have three large containers:
ATO (fresh, elevated) + mixing/buffer (salt, tank level) + surge (salt, elevated).

 

[ca1ore]

Has anyone figured out how to integrate an ATO with a surge tank?

If you are asking what I think you are asking - it will sort itself out. The ATO will only get triggered at the point where the surge device is filled. If you also use a high water float in your sump, that may need to be raised, and you have to design the system so that the water level in your skimmer section does not fluctuate. All manageable, but also all reasons that I ultimately moved on from these devices.

 

[Dmorty217]

If you are asking what I think you are asking - it will sort itself out. The ATO will only get triggered at the point where the surge device is filled. If you also use a high water float in your sump, that may need to be raised, and you have to design the system so that the water level in your skimmer section does not fluctuate. All manageable, but also all reasons that I ultimately moved on from these devices.

These are all things I'm thinking about. I love my CL now and it will only get better when I redo it in the bigger tank. I was looking for ways to change it up and provide CL and surge or CL, mp60, and surge or just a surge at night? I have seen 6 MP60s on a 900g and the flow was good but there were still significant waste build up on the bottom. Also I have heard that they can melt peoples acrylic if they are ramped up all the time, is this true? I want glass but you never know

 

[Breadman03]

I don't know about the MP's melting acrylic. I suppose it may be possible, but running my -40 at a constant 100% only makes the pump very warm to the touch.

 

[fishgate]

Why would you integrate an ATO (fresh water) with a surge tank (salt water)?

I have three large containers:
ATO (fresh, elevated) + mixing/buffer (salt, tank level) + surge (salt, elevated).

Your tank still loses water to evaporation and hence still needs freshwater replenishing. An ATO usually watches the water level in the return section of the sump which should stay consistent. With a surge tank taking several gallons of water that water has to come from and go someplace. I don't see how to have a surge tank and keep an ATO at the same time.

 

[karimwassef]

I run both an ATO and surge. No issues. I just set the float switch at the lowest level I want the water in the sump to be just before the surge initiates (full surge tank)