Survival rate...
- Thread starter Mcsommerfeld
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Rasing sg .001 per day will not stress the fish. You might get away with .002 per day without much stress. Large jumps can cause osmotic shock. The rate going down doesn't matter and will not stress the fish as long as you don't go below the fish's normal internal sg of 1.008.
Saltwater fish , drink a lot and pass concentrated urine to make up for the fluids they loose in a hypertonic environment. Liquids just diffuse out of them since the water around them is naturally higher than the water inside them. They must maintain an internal sg of 1.008 or loose homeostasis and die . Think pickled or dehydration when external sg is high.. They can't adjust to a big change and go into shock. Dropping sg causes no stress . They just drink less. Prolonged periods at low sg may atrophy the kidneys and cause other internal damage though. Marine fish do seem to do ok during the typical 8 week hyposalinity treatment though.
As a caveat ,this is different for invertebrates( corals, shrimpo, snails, calms ,etc) which are mostly isotonic. The water inside is a close match to the water outside. More of an exact match is needed for them as they won't tolerate large rises or drops. They can not osmoregulate.
Saltwater fish , drink a lot and pass concentrated urine to make up for the fluids they loose in a hypertonic environment. Liquids just diffuse out of them since the water around them is naturally higher than the water inside them. They must maintain an internal sg of 1.008 or loose homeostasis and die . Think pickled or dehydration when external sg is high.. They can't adjust to a big change and go into shock. Dropping sg causes no stress . They just drink less. Prolonged periods at low sg may atrophy the kidneys and cause other internal damage though. Marine fish do seem to do ok during the typical 8 week hyposalinity treatment though.
As a caveat ,this is different for invertebrates( corals, shrimpo, snails, calms ,etc) which are mostly isotonic. The water inside is a close match to the water outside. More of an exact match is needed for them as they won't tolerate large rises or drops. They can not osmoregulate.
I think it's rude and ridiculous to characterize someones recommendation as ridiculous without contributing much of anything other than some pendantic gibberish about thermoclines. What's the point in a rapid temp change vs 15 more minutes in an unopened bag. What's the hurry What's the benefit.
Pick up is an option but won't account for the time and temperature in transit before the receiving facility or the ammonia buildup either particularly if you don't pick them up as soon as possible. What is your rapid acclimation procedure? What does that mean?
Robka
New member
I agree with the fed ex ups hold method. After losing fish due to the fact that fed ex did not deliver until 4:30 pm, I started having fish held at the local fed ex branch, so I can pick up at 8:00am instead of worrying where my finned friends are all day :worried2: My fed ex local girl knows me well enough she stopped checking my ID when I pick up. I would have less orders if I didn't have a hard to catch mantis shrimp & gorilla crab that like to slowly rid my tank of snails:headwally:
Do you use the same acclimation method for snails and other inverts?
No , Snails and other invertebrates, clams, corals ,shrimp,crabs etc can't osmoregulate, they are isotonic . So matching the sg of the water they are in closely either in a qt tank or via a slow drip is very important . With fish you can estimate and go low . With inverts you need to match it more closely. Becausetehy can't tolerate much variance in sg from their natural environment , these animals are usually shipped in higher sg water close to a typical reef tank, unlike fish which are often shipped in low sg water. So check the sg of the bagwater and match it if you are using qt tank or drip . How long you drip depends on how far off the sg is.
I don't take in a lot of snails and shrimp, mostly fish and corals. A friend of mine who does deal with snails recommends placing them on a platform just touching the water so they can acclimate themselves. Never tried it but several folks do it that way. The ammonia may still be an issue with a long drip but appears to cause less trouble for snails.
No , Snails and other invertebrates, clams, corals ,shrimp,crabs etc can't osmoregulate, they are isotonic . So matching the sg of the water they are in closely either in a qt tank or via a slow drip is very important . With fish you can estimate and go low . With inverts you need to match it more closely. Becausetehy can't tolerate much variance in sg from their natural environment , these animals are usually shipped in higher sg water close to a typical reef tank, unlike fish which are often shipped in low sg water. So check the sg of the bagwater and match it if you are using qt tank or drip . How long you drip depends on how far off the sg is.
I don't take in a lot of snails and shrimp, mostly fish and corals. A friend of mine who does deal with snails recommends placing them on a platform just touching the water so they can acclimate themselves. Never tried it but several folks do it that way. The ammonia may still be an issue with a long drip but appears to cause less trouble for snails.
moogoomoogoo
Premium Member
I meant no rudeness or disrespect and maybe should have used other wording. My point is time is of the essence and why waste time acclimating for temp only(floating the bag) when you could be adding water to acclimate for specific gravity and pH, etc. which at the same time is acclimating for temp. I open the bags immediately and slowly add water over a period no longer than an hour. I don't think there has ever been a formal study on what is best and all of this is really just a matter of opinion.
Ok, different words would have been better. Thanks for clearing it up.
I disagree with your conclusion but do it your way if you like .There is a risk of ammonia toxicity keeping teh fish in teh bagwaer that that long even with some new water added.
I'm stating my way. The op asked for methods. Folks can choose which is best for them.
Time is of the essence more so after the bag is open. te nor fifteen extra minutes while it's still closed to acclimate temp is benefical,imo. BTW I don't loose fish to acclimation In fact loses are very rare as I acclimate this way and quarantine and pretreat for ich and other maaldies as observed.
My point on temp is fish may handle large temp swings but why put an already stressed fish through it, when adjusting the temp of the quarantine tank and then floating the unopened bag can easily adjust it . 10 to 15 minutes added on to a 12 to 48 hour confinement is not going to make much difference, unless the fish is already showing signs of stress in the bag. Then I'd get it out of that water and into cleaner water without delay.
Do you qt fish? If so acclimating the tank and not the bag water is safer course in terms of ammonia toxicity.
There are plenty of studies on ammonia toxicity as NH 3 (more toxic ) vs NH4 (less toxic) and it's relation to ph. These tpes of ammonia shift back and forth instantaneously as ph varies. Many elements do that.
Plenty on CO2 and carbonic acid genrating more H+ thus lowering ph too.
Plenty on CO2 equilbrating with the air.
Plenty on fish excreting ammonia and CO2 into the bag water.
Most of this is basic and I'm sure you can google up plenty on it.
So , it's really quite obvious that CO2 will build up along with ammonia over a long confinement in a bag of water with a fish in it.. The CO2 will increase H+which will lower ph and with more H+ there is more of it to bind with toxic NH3, making more less toxic NH4.
When the bag is opened the ph will rise as CO2 equilbrates with the air and raises the ph, reducing the H+ shifting the ammonia from NH4 towards a higher NH3 concentration. Thus, potentially exposing the fish to toxic ammonia levels . The fish may or may not not die but can have damage gillsand so on as a result .
I disagree with your conclusion but do it your way if you like .There is a risk of ammonia toxicity keeping teh fish in teh bagwaer that that long even with some new water added.
I'm stating my way. The op asked for methods. Folks can choose which is best for them.
Time is of the essence more so after the bag is open. te nor fifteen extra minutes while it's still closed to acclimate temp is benefical,imo. BTW I don't loose fish to acclimation In fact loses are very rare as I acclimate this way and quarantine and pretreat for ich and other maaldies as observed.
My point on temp is fish may handle large temp swings but why put an already stressed fish through it, when adjusting the temp of the quarantine tank and then floating the unopened bag can easily adjust it . 10 to 15 minutes added on to a 12 to 48 hour confinement is not going to make much difference, unless the fish is already showing signs of stress in the bag. Then I'd get it out of that water and into cleaner water without delay.
Do you qt fish? If so acclimating the tank and not the bag water is safer course in terms of ammonia toxicity.
There are plenty of studies on ammonia toxicity as NH 3 (more toxic ) vs NH4 (less toxic) and it's relation to ph. These tpes of ammonia shift back and forth instantaneously as ph varies. Many elements do that.
Plenty on CO2 and carbonic acid genrating more H+ thus lowering ph too.
Plenty on CO2 equilbrating with the air.
Plenty on fish excreting ammonia and CO2 into the bag water.
Most of this is basic and I'm sure you can google up plenty on it.
So , it's really quite obvious that CO2 will build up along with ammonia over a long confinement in a bag of water with a fish in it.. The CO2 will increase H+which will lower ph and with more H+ there is more of it to bind with toxic NH3, making more less toxic NH4.
When the bag is opened the ph will rise as CO2 equilbrates with the air and raises the ph, reducing the H+ shifting the ammonia from NH4 towards a higher NH3 concentration. Thus, potentially exposing the fish to toxic ammonia levels . The fish may or may not not die but can have damage gillsand so on as a result .
Robka
New member
Thanks so much for the info, I haven't had any issues acclimating fish, but snails are another story. I am having problems picturing this platform method in my head. If you could paint me a better picture, I would really like to try this method for my next batch of snails.
Thanks again
NMC
New member
All shipments I've received from L.A. recommend the drip method. With my small sample size of 3, therefore lacking any scientific validity, the one I used the drip method with is the only one that died. Perhaps the drip method wasn't the reason the fish died. I don't know. There are differing opinions and the 2 fish that lived I skipped the whole drip thing, so I'm leaning on that being the way to go.
I heard a funny thing in this movie this morning. Polio outbreaks would peak in the summer time. Some brainiak noticed that ice cream sales peaked in the summer as well, so, ta-da, ice cream causes polio! It seems that most "knowledge" in this hobby is gained by non-scientific anecdotal "experiments" like my 2 out of 3 experiment. Although not completely valueless, such anecdotal experiments easily lead to incorrect conclusions. Much of the "known facts" that people are so passionate about comes from methods with lots of room for error. What's a person to believe? Minus controlled, blind studies, you just have to go on what makes the most sense to you and hope you chose wisely. Most helpful to me was Sk8ters info on fish acclimation, I think it's in her blog, might be a sticky. My teeny tiny experiment supports her methods so that's what I'm going to do. But I'm certainly not going to argue with anyone who feels a different method (hour long plus drip method for example) might be better. What we have on reefcentral is a huge collection of experiential knowledge that gives us lots to sift through and consider. It aint perfect, but it's a huge help in choosing a course. Read, read, and read some more, then make your best stab at reasonable.
I heard a funny thing in this movie this morning. Polio outbreaks would peak in the summer time. Some brainiak noticed that ice cream sales peaked in the summer as well, so, ta-da, ice cream causes polio! It seems that most "knowledge" in this hobby is gained by non-scientific anecdotal "experiments" like my 2 out of 3 experiment. Although not completely valueless, such anecdotal experiments easily lead to incorrect conclusions. Much of the "known facts" that people are so passionate about comes from methods with lots of room for error. What's a person to believe? Minus controlled, blind studies, you just have to go on what makes the most sense to you and hope you chose wisely. Most helpful to me was Sk8ters info on fish acclimation, I think it's in her blog, might be a sticky. My teeny tiny experiment supports her methods so that's what I'm going to do. But I'm certainly not going to argue with anyone who feels a different method (hour long plus drip method for example) might be better. What we have on reefcentral is a huge collection of experiential knowledge that gives us lots to sift through and consider. It aint perfect, but it's a huge help in choosing a course. Read, read, and read some more, then make your best stab at reasonable.
Most commercial shippers recommend the drip method in the context of moving the fish to a tank without considering the opportunity to acclimate a quarantine tank to the bag water . I wonder if they drip acclimate the newly shipped fish they receive?
I have acclimated wrasses including: halochores, chirhilabrus and macrophrangodon without losses. It's not a bad idea to treat them preventatively with prazi pro as sometimes flukes show up on wrassesinparticular even after a few weeks.
I have acclimated wrasses including: halochores, chirhilabrus and macrophrangodon without losses. It's not a bad idea to treat them preventatively with prazi pro as sometimes flukes show up on wrassesinparticular even after a few weeks.
IIRC he uses a plate raised to where it is just a quarter inch or so below the surface. I've put them on powerhead tops. Any surface touching the water will do. In any case inverts need to be kept at sg near nsw values, ie 1.0264 on average. and the bag water they are in is usually higher than that used for shipping fish.Thanks so much for the info, I haven't had any issues acclimating fish, but snails are another story. I am having problems picturing this platform method in my head. If you could paint me a better picture, I would really like to try this method for my next batch of snails.
Thanks again
I respectfully don't agree with this. Now you are way more experienced than me, and probably know more than I ever will, but I don't understand this. Several of my LFS keep their fish wall at 1.020 or lower. I purchase fish and acclimate them to my 1.025 over a 30 to 45 min time and they do fine. I have read in several threads that you can lower sg quick, but have to raise it slowly. How is this possible given this logic?
You don't need to agree but I hope I can help you understand.
Your lucky or your fish were hardy enough to work hard when you got them. I've observed folks at lfs's acclimate in a 30 to 60 minute time rame and put fish into higher sg water. They gulp a lot and usually recover; sometimes they fall to the bottom and don't recover. They have to work hard to stay hydrated to make up for the fluids diffusing out of them to stay hydrated enough to maintain an internal sg of 1.008. If they can't all of the internal chemistry and organs go of kilter and they die.Pretty direct and simple.Extra stress and osmotic shock will equal higher losses .
I'm happy your fish are ok but that doesn't mean they weren't stressed by the jump of .005 in sg in a brief period of time.
What exactly do you disagree with? The facts can be checked with some independent research which anyone interested in the subject can do. I'd google up marine fish specific gravity or osmotic shock for starters.
Your lucky or your fish were hardy enough to work hard when you got them. I've observed folks at lfs's acclimate in a 30 to 60 minute time rame and put fish into higher sg water. They gulp a lot and usually recover; sometimes they fall to the bottom and don't recover. They have to work hard to stay hydrated to make up for the fluids diffusing out of them to stay hydrated enough to maintain an internal sg of 1.008. If they can't all of the internal chemistry and organs go of kilter and they die.Pretty direct and simple.Extra stress and osmotic shock will equal higher losses .
I'm happy your fish are ok but that doesn't mean they weren't stressed by the jump of .005 in sg in a brief period of time.
What exactly do you disagree with? The facts can be checked with some independent research which anyone interested in the subject can do. I'd google up marine fish specific gravity or osmotic shock for starters.
Mr. Fish
New member
You could slowly raise the salinity of the QT over the course of a couple weeks before adding to the DT.
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No.
I use the use the time in qt to gradually adjust( sg and temp) to match the levels in the display as noted in my first post on this thread as opposed to a drip of several hours or changing a few cups of bag water over an hour or so.
For example, I'd adjust qt water ( usually in the transfer tanks ) from 1.020 to 1.026 incrementally over the course of a week mostly by replacing evaporation with new salt water instead of ro water( the exact sg of the replacement water would be based on the volume and the math to get based on the math to get a .001 jump each day. The final qt observation period occurs in a cylced qt tank with sg which closely matches the display.
The idea is simple : adjust the water in the tank receiving the fish to the bag water . Then adjust it nice and slow to match the display water rather than keeping the fish in the opened bag and hurrying the acclimation.
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