Surviving ICK and going fallow?

Hookup

New member
Well my fish have all survived a 2 month battle with ICK. Water quality, FaunaMarin Health food, and frequent feedings were added to prayers as opposed to QT'ing them and they have all shown significant signs of ICK recession. Not 100% gone, but 1000 times better then several weeks ago...

That aside, my question is, if/when your fish develop immunity to ICK in your tank (that specific strain) will the ICK eventual die off or does the cycle continue but the fish immune system now just keep it at bay?

Q: If your fish fully recover from ICK, and nothing else is added for 8 to 12 weeks, will the ICK die?
 
Your fish will generally still have it just in a controlled form. It will still very likely be in the fish's gills doing some damage but a fish can survive like that. But if you have a power outage or any other sudden stress the ich will be waiting to capitalize on it.
 
Well I am not 100% sure I agree with that and would like some more input please.......

If your fish are healthy and are able to fight the ich off. That means the ick has no host correct? After 6-8 weeks of it not having a host doesnt it go away?

There has to be someone that has reaserched this. Please share any information that you can.
 
Fish will develop only a partial immunity to a strain of ich. They still have ich. How much they are suffering from it while it is "controlled" is debated. If you were to take your fish that had ich and they reached partial immunity, then waited 10 weeks of perfect conditions and no visible signs, then stressed them out.... you would see the visible signs once again. So yes 8 weeks without a host does mean the ich would go away. The problem is they still have a host the ich is just at subclinical levels.
 
Jenglish: not challenging you at all, but are you stating researched facts, observation, opinion or a combo of all? There are loads of ICK related research articles, and none of the few that I read made mention of the definition of "immunity" to ICK.

defin A) "immunity" could mean they are immune to it's effects, but still carry ICK, as you imply but...

defin b) "immunity" could mean that the ICK is no longer capable of taking hold in the fish because the fishes immune system destroys ICK, hence they are immune.

In the latter case, I could see how it is possible for the particular strain of ICK to completely die off because the cycle becomes interrupted...


As for ICK returning months after it appears to disappear due to a stressing event, such as a power-outage.

Theory: I would only propose that it is possible that the ICK was removed (because of immunity definition #2 above) then re-introduced via adding fish, corals, inverts, or other. When the subsequent "stressing event" occurs, the infestation of ICK looked like it was returning, but in fact it was not.

This hypothesis is simple conjecture, but seems to be possible.

One way to "prove" the first definition of "immunity" is true would be to have a tank that successfully became "immune" to ICK then without any additions of any external ICK hosting elements, several months had a resurgence of ICK. I would think that this would be more definitive.

So whilst I understand your answer, I guess I am hoping that someone has some reference research, or long-term observational experience that can provided a clearer understanding.

PS: Please, I hope I do not offend you, or anyone else, I'm just researching this theory and trying to show all sides of it.
 
No offense taken at all :)

My understanding is based on reading. The best source I have that is clear and based on science comes from an author who used to post on RC. He does not anymore and posts on another site. Some people believe it is in poor taste to link forum to forum as it steals traffic and potential add revenue etc. I have PMed the link to the OP and would be happy to send it to anyone else that would like it.

I have never had ich and have even considered looking for a sick fish so I could study it but haven't gotten around to it. :) I based my above statements on my understanding of crytpo life cycle as I have read on it.
 
I gotta say this is a good thread so far. It is rare that we can discuss a controversial subject like Ich and have a good educated debate without people getting bent out of shape.

I have pondered this many times, and I'm really interested in some of these hypotheses...
 
I have read here on this forum at one time or another those who believe Ich is present in every tank. The thinking is that even QT doesn't guarantee that Ick is not introduced when the QT'ed fish is deemed not infected or "cured" and then placed in the main display. To expand on this line of thinking, as jenglish says the fish
generally still have it just in a controlled form
Who can say if a fish dipped and placed in QT that does not display any visable sighs of Ich is really disease free when placed in the main display.

You would probably have to dissect the animal to truly know for sure.
 
I read an article somewhere that says there are evidences fish develop immunity from Ich and eventually get rid of that particular strain in your aquarium as long as you don't introduce new strain by introducing new fishes. The timeline is around 9 months if I can remember correctly. I will try to find a reference link for ya.
 
Well I can tell you that I no longer QT. When I set up my 75 gallon tank I did and almost killed a couple fish because it is so hard to maintain good water quality in a QT. In my 300 I have ich and it always gets a new fish. My latest addition is a blue throat trigger from a LFS. I have had him now for 2 weeks. For the first 4 days he did not eat at all and was COVERED in ich. A few days ago he started eating like a champ and is still covered in ich but not as bad. He does not breath heavy and is not scratching on anything. I will continue to feed food soaked in vitamins and garlic and as long as he keeps eating I feel confident he will be able to fight it off.

Now if I get a fish from a fellow hobiest it does not seem to come down with ich. At least that I can see anyway. There are exceptions like a purple tang I got from a fellow hobiest came down with ich and has been fine now for several months.

I will never tell anyone they should not QT. If you want to go thru the process more power to you. It is just not for me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14115863#post14115863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PaxRoma
I read an article somewhere that says there are evidences fish develop immunity from Ich and eventually get rid of that particular strain in your aquarium as long as you don't introduce new strain by introducing new fishes. The timeline is around 9 months if I can remember correctly. I will try to find a reference link for ya.

A referenece would be great. I have also heard the same thing.
 
I still QT and have a Purple Tang in QT now. I use the QT after a dip to fatten up the fish and do at least a week observation.
...so hard to maintain good water quality in a QT...
I use a 10 gallon which is really difficult as far as water quality. But I don't maintain the QT very long usually and make daily water changes. If I see any sign of parasites I can more easily treat the fish in a small enclosure. I also hypo in while in QT.

This has worked so far and I have not had any disease outbreak in the main display...yet :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14115960#post14115960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nhlives
I still QT and have a Purple Tang in QT now. I use the QT after a dip to fatten up the fish and do at least a week observation.

I use a 10 gallon which is really difficult as far as water quality. But I don't maintain the QT very long usually and make daily water changes. If I see any sign of parasites I can more easily treat the fish in a small enclosure. I also hypo in while in QT.

This has worked so far and I have not had any disease outbreak in the main display...yet :)

I hope you can continue with the good luck streak. Just continue to feed the fish well and maintain great water quality. It is my opinion that fish can fight it off if conditions are kept proper.
 
Jenglish: not challenging you at all, but are you stating researched facts, observation, opinion or a combo of all? There are loads of ICK related research articles, and none of the few that I read made mention of the definition of "immunity" to ICK.

I can feel it in my bones, these ich threads always go bad.
After saying that I will say that these are my observations from having fish over fifty years and saltwater fish for forty years and spending almost 300 hours underwater. I write my own material and do my own research and come to my own conclusions.
So this is only my opinion, I do know what is written about ich because I remember when all the authors started writing about it.
I personally do not quarantine. Unless you have my tank, you should quarantine. There is ich in my tank and it has always been there just as it is on every fish in the sea.
Most of the time in tanks it will become epidemic and kill everything in the tank. I say most of the time because most tanks are not that healthy or old enough to overcome it. I really can't say why my fish don't die from ich but the first 10 years or so they died all the time.
It would do me no good to quarantine as I add all sorts of stuff from the sea including, mud, water, bacteria as well as fish, crabs, amenones, rocks and anything else I find interesting.
My tank will be 40 years old next year and I believe it is very healthy even though once in a while I will see a spot or two. This is normal and in "my" tank, no problem. There have been fish live over 18 years in there with the ich as most of them live long enough to die of old age.
If your fish are not spawning every few weeks, they are not healthy, sorry. If there is only one of a kind and no pair then they should at least be exhibiting spawning behavior like cleaning a nest or chasing away males. This is not all fish but most bottom dwelling fish. Damsels including clowns, and gobi's should at least show this behavior. If a fish is spawning that is the healthiest a fish could be and I have yet to see a fish in that condition with ich.
If I put a fish in my tank that has obvious ich (don't even think of doing this) it will ether die or become cured but never once in decades will another fish get ich. If I put in a healthy looking fish it will almost surely develop ich in a day or two but it always subsides in a couple of days and I have not lost a fish like this in many years. I buy a lot of smaller clown gobies (their lifespan is only a few years) and they sometimes become covered in ich and I am sure they will die. But for some reason, it does not happen.
Again, unless your tank is 10-20 years old and you know this is happening, I would quarantine.
Also if your fish are not showing spawning behavior I would correct the problem which could be a number of things including food. Feeding the same frozen food every day, no matter how good it is supposed to be does not cut it.
So this is my experience and I know many people have a lot of trouble with this paracite as I once did.
Have fun and don't do what I do.
Paul :smokin:
 
I'm somewhere on the fence about the whole subject. I am a very analytical person and have read tons of information on it. I do completely agree you can have an ICH free tank, it has to be introduced, but I don't think it is feasible for most of us...

I quarantine all of my fish and follow all the rules to the "T" but I have been burnt a few times as well. As someone else mentioned, unless you quarantine rock, CUC, and corals, you could still introduce it.

No matter which theory you believe, I think everyone agrees that the happy, healthy fish is the most important objective.
 
There really is no reason for this thread to go BAD....It is all opinions. Everything that I have posted is my expierience. It is factual based on my tank. Granted my tank has not been close to being up for 40 years. (YOU MUST BE OLD):D But I think I am in a similar situation. Almost every fish I introduce comes down with ich. In a couple weeks it has seemed to go away. Every once in a while I will see a spot or 2 on my hippo tang. All I can say is do what you want to do. This is a hobby we should be enjoying. Make sure you enjoy it and if you want to QT then do it.
 
This is good so far, but fails to accomplish the main question, which is a simple question, but haha, as expected there is no simple answer. The question, can fish become immune to ICK enough to break the ICK cycle and consequently kill of the ICK in your tank?

I read a lot about fish only having temporary immunity to ICK, which is acceptable, however if "temporary" is longer than 8 weeks, well it could break the ICK cycle. If immunity means that ICK cannot survive on the host-fish because the fish's immune system destroys/defeats/prevents ICK from hosting.

From the reading and experiences I'm forming the opinion that this is in fact possible, just not likely.. to allow this to occur all fish would have to form complete immunity to ICK for the same duration which was longer than 6 weeks. In a mulit-fish system, which we all have, this seems somewhat equivalent to the sun, stars and moon all aligning.

However, it does seem that you can live with ICK in your tank, but husbandry must be top-notch and then the results are black or white, your fish survives or dies.. if it survives the first few weeks, then it's likely good for the duration.

comments? Thoughts??
 
Not an answer, but a theory,

Ich is an external parasite that embeds itself into the skin of the fish. Scabies would be a comparable pest in humans. Healthy humans scratch, and though annoyed, keep the parasite to limited numbers. Sick humans can become overwhelmed and form thick mats of scale and millions of parasites called Norwegian scabies. Scabies was termed, in medieval times, the 7 year itch because it is reported that a human can and will eventually scratch them off. I not sure if this is true. What I can say is that there is not a report in the literature that a human has become immune to the pest. This would mean that in some way we can alter our skin so that the pest cannot reside. Now some fish do not develop ich for this reason, but that does not describe a fish in a tank developing immunity. Some people may never develop itch from scabies and be called carriers. In actuality they are not allergic to the feces that the mites deposit in our skin but are surely infested. Most humans develop an allergic response within 3 weeks of infestation.

Ick differs in that it also attacks the gills of the fish. If scabies were to attack our lungs, I imagine that an overwhelming infestation could be fatal too.

To answer the question, I do not believe that an immunity can develop to an external parasite such as ick. Our bodies do not kill ticks or mosquitoes when they bite us, how could a fishes.

In an attempt to answer, Does it ever go away? - I have read the same article of it cycling out of a tank because of genetic mutation. Well these genetic mutations have allowed evolution. If you believe in Darwinism, then why would only ich mutate itself into extinction. Nonsense IMO.

Now I must go scratch...
 
So I think the central question is whether or not Ich is eventually going to infect all tanks at least in some low level matter and whether or not any attempt at QT can provide a confidence that a tank is not infested.

I, for one, still use QT as I have said but would have to consider the likely possibility that the my main display contains the parasite as a mild infection in one or more of the resident fish.

QT allows for observation, preventive measures and an opportunity to give a stressed fish some time to get heathy.

Great thread and all good input.
 
Back
Top