Strange (to me) Green Chromis Ick Behavior

[jimmaki]

So I got ick after over a decade without it. But here's the strange part.

I have had this 100 gal reef aquarium for decades, tried everything from deep sand bottom with plenum to shallow sand bottom to bare bottom. Bare bottom was the lowest maintenance, but I just didn't like the bare bottom look, maybe because I'm a diver and have never seen a bare bottom ocean reef.

So I went back to a shallow sand bottom. I opted for a orange diamond goby to keep the sand moved around instead of an invetibrate cleanup crew. He does a wonderful job. Sand it squeaky white clean. While there's plenty of natural food in the well established rock that migrates to the sand, I still eventually trained him to eat mysis and spirulina enriched brine shrimp as gobies eat the natural food in the sand faster than it can reproduce.

I have no QT since the DT has been fully stocked for ages so I took a chance and acclimated the goby directly into the DT. Sure enough, all the fish displayed signs of ick within a week or two. All except the goby so I'm assuming it came in with the water since i didn't pat him perfectly dry before letting him loose in the DT. (sarcasm)

Both the yellow and hippo tangs eventually got covered with ick. The percula clowns and green chromis fish never exhibited any signs of ick. The hippo was so badly infected his eyes were covered white with ick. Since he couldn't see, he got very skiddish and hid in the rocks most of the time, only coming out at feeding time.

What is strange (to me) is that the green chromis fish hang around the yellow tang like cleaner wrasses and flitter and bump up against him and then appear to eat whatever falls off, although whatever it is is too small to see. I'm guessing it's either ick eggs or the parasites themselves. Even when the chromis aren't bumping up against the tang, they flitter and shake. They don't seem to pay any attention to the Hippo tang. He's not at all aggessive ...odd the chromis make a distinction.

This has been going on for about two weeks and the tangs seem to be recovering and all the fish seem fine and are eating. At no point did any of the fish stop eating. I don't know if they will have another bout of ick when the eggs in the sand hatch and even more hungry parasites start swimming in the water column. I'm not using any treatment methods from chemicals to temp or salinity changes or garlic soaked food. I've had these fish for a long time (over ten years) except for the goby and he has been fine since I put him in the tank a month ago.

This tank is a couple decades old and has had ick before. I've never chemically treated it, nor have I left if fallow without ick food (fish) for a couple month as suggested by some. So it's one of those always-has-ick tanks. I'm guessing the fish develop some kind of immune system ability to help them ward off future bouts if the initial ones don't kill them. I know there's ick in there since once the chiller didn't shut off and the temp went down to 68*F before I could get home and the tangs got ich ... and recovered.

But I'm happy they all seem to have survived this latest bhout and am wondering if anyone else has seen green chromis act this way, almost like cleaner wrasses. They don't directly peck at the infected fish but do this odd shaking dance around the "patient" to what I suppose is shaking off the parasites so they can eat them, or else it's a perverted inte-rspecies mating dance...?

Comments? (other than don't put in any more fish without a QT) <g>

 

[PCguy21]

My green chromis do that too... its like they trying to smack the ich off... once i started hypo snd ich went off my tang. The chromis stopped.

So i think the green chromis are trying to help the fieh take off ich.. my naso tang actually raised his gills and fins wyen the chromis were doing it so i think chromis might be a cleaner type of fish

 

[jimmaki]

I agree, the chromis do seem to have cleaner fish instincts. One has started to vibrate its tail up against the infected fish's body. The hippo tang saddles up to the chromis as if inviting them to do their thing.

Hypo isn't an option for me unfortunately. I've had to more or less just let nature take its course, cruel as that may sound. Fortunately the yellow tang fully recovered and was not affected by the "second round" of hatching ich eggs. Part of that might be that it was smart enough to start sleeping up at the top of the tank by the outflow. The hippo tank however, got blasted on round two as it slept in the rocks down near the bottom of the tank.

Although the hippo tang was so covered in ich, including his eyes, that I though I was going to lose him. I felt I had to do something so I started soaking their food in garlic. Perhaps coincidence but things improved fairly rapidly after that. Haven't lost any fish to this bout with ich, so I think they have benefitted from some natural immunity over time. Round three hasn't started yet, so I may not be out of the woods yet.

What is amazing is the fish that I introduced at the time this ich outbreak first appeared, is the diamond goby who shows no signs of ich to this day. He is still going strong keeping the sand bed clean and is learning to eat what I feed the other carnivores so I'm hopeful he won't meet the fate many of them do by starving to death.

So far no signs of a round three of hatching ich eggs. I wonder if the goby eats the ich in the sand when they're in a vulnerable stage….. ?

 

[HumbleFish]

It sounds like the goby is an asymptomatic carrier (Typhoid Mary). It's also possible that being your DT is very mature and probably loaded with different strains of bacteria, that said bacteria are “gnawing” on the parasite tomonts and damaging them. Which inhibits their capacity to release the same amount of free swimmers as healthy tomonts. Thus keeping the (fish) infection rate sublethal.

 

[jimmaki]

You've introduced me to two new concepts, asymptomatic carriers and bacteria "gnawing" on parasite tomonts. Interesting.

Since this tank has had ick in the past (many years ago and never treated), I guess it's also possible the current ick breakout is just a function of stress to the tangs introducing the new fish caused. In addition to the goby, neither the green chromis nor percula clowns showed any signs of ick or unusual behavior.

Currently all fish show no signs of ick and are acting normally and eating well. I'm hopeful the garlic is helping their immune systems.

I wonder what strain(s) of bacteria gnaw on tomonts ….? Is there some method to increase their number during an ick breakout … perhaps organic carbon dosing or ….? If that is what is indeed going on to mitigate the death rate I'm just grateful it exists and am inclined to leave well enough alone as those kinds of symbiotic dependencies are so delicate. The last time I tried carbon dosing, the bacteria explosion lowered the oxygen level to the point I had to heavily aerate the water column. I'm sure the stress on the fish would help the ick more than anything else.

 

[ThRoewer]

"asymptomatic carrier" may not be the entirely correct term as the fish can actually get sick under the right circumstances. It's more likely partial immunity that keeps the infection below the point where it actually bothers or even harms the fish. This is however a state any fish who survived a serious but non-lethal infection can achieve.
But any stressor that is significant enough to impair the fish's immune system enough so that it no longer can keep the infection under wraps may cause an outbreak. In those cases it is often enough to remove the stressor to make the infection go dormant again.

 

[jimmaki]

The only thing that I can think of that would stress the tangs is the introduction of the goby. For the first week or so, they would chase the goby into hiding in the rocks whenever it would come out to sift sand. Eventually, the goby dug out a cave under one of the rocks and even built up walls of sand around the opening to prevent the tangs from getting in.

After a few weeks the tangs started leaving the goby alone. I notice the goby even removed the walls around his cave opening and now stays out most of the day happily sifting sand around the entire tank.

So, everyone seems happy now and there are no signs of ick that I can see or tell. Hopefully there won't be another round of hatchlings coming up out of the sand and attacking the fish, or at least the fish's immune systems will be able to fend off the parasites.

I don't know if it's really possible to totally get rid of ick in a tank. I'd rather have fish that have some level of immunity to the disease. Some human diseases that we've been able to get to a somewhat dormant level using vaccines, never really die off completely. All it takes is one infected person among a group of un-vaccinated children to kick off an widespread epidemic. I've heard all it takes is one drop of water on a fish, plant, coral, invertibrate, etc. to reinfect a "clean" tank with ick and other diseases. You just can't pat totally dry most invertibrates and corals.

At any rate, I think the garlic soaked food has a tangible benefit once the fish are infected.

 

[ThRoewer]

If you don't introduce new strains of ick with new, unquarantined fish or other wet items, and if your current fish are fit and remain largely immune against it, the Cryptocaryon strain currently present in the system is likely to die out within a year.
I had that happen in my system and there is scientific research that is backing this.

While not necessarily the the recommended approach, it can work well for people who have a fully stocked system and the discipline (or lack of funds) to add new things for a good while.
It is certainly much gentler on the fish than a brutal chemical treatment regiment or TTM and housing them in barren holding tanks while the main tank undergoes a long fallow period - which all still may fail due to the ability of some Cryptocaryon strains to encyst for long time to wait for "better" conditions. This long term excystment doesn't seem to occur as long as fish are present. And fish with full or partial immunity will actually kill or weaken parasites that try to infect them (this has also been observed in studies).


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[jimmaki]

I hope you're right that the current strain of Cryptocaryon is likely to die out within a year if no new strains of ick are introduced to the system. I once observed an ick breakout when the system controlling the chiller failed to shut it off even though nothing new had been introduced into the tank and it had been "clean" of parasite outbreaks for years. So my impression, perhaps false, is that once ick'd always have ick.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of any studies observing immunity killing or weakening parasites.

You bring up a good point that this whole immunity benefit is like the flu vaccine in that only the strains the fish are immune to are affected. I imagine like viruses there are many strains of parasites and in all likelihood, some strains are becoming resistant to the protective proteins the fish produce to protect themselves.

Although the chromis fish have stopped flittering around the tangs, they have started to act strangely with each other, chasing one another around the tank and then facing one another head on and "kissing" ... looks like some kind of mating ritual.

The good news is by now round three of hachtings looking for hosts should be waterborne and I don't see any signs of ick on any of the fish. But I'll keep an eye out for signs and keep knocking on wood.

 

[PCguy21]

Tbh im wondering if i have super ich.. ive been doing hypo for 4 weeks now.. and cupramine at .35 to .4 WHILE IN hypo at 1.009 for 10 days now.. Copper is 2x more effective and 2x more deadly in fresh water and 1.009 is more fresh then salt hell its below brackish.. Thats why i jad copper at .35 to .4 Although .4 migjt have been too high.. and my yellow tang is breaking out with cysts.. odd thing is when they fall off they leave huge red marks like the size of a pencil tip.. So i dunno if its ich or what.. i did introduce a new fish 2 weeks ago that had ich.. but still how is ich able to survive hypo and copper at such levels i have them.. Even if thst fish 2 weeks ago had ich he hasnt had it since and non of my other fish have it cept this yellow tang.

So im not sure if its ich or not... I almost suspect its a reaction to copper.. but can copper form cysts that look like ich ? That fall off and make huge red marks ? . I dunno man.. or maybe its something else.

And if it is ich why arent my other 3 tangs getting it especially my powder brown and blue tang.

Im stopping copper and i raised the salinity to 1.015. Copper is at .25 right now still technicly high enough to kill ich especially in low salinity copper is 2x more effective.. Only reason i stopped hypo and cupramine is my blue tang his eyes are buldging out and his body is swollen... ive seen this before in fish with hypo i dont think he can handle hyposalinity... ive had 4 fish die from this in hypo and while information is sparce ive seen others have this issue before too.

So im hoping removing the copper and raising salinity from 1.009 to 1.015 and then up to probly 1.018 today helps my blue tang.

And i also hope what im seeing on my yellow tang goes away... God i hope it isnt ich because i dunno what to do if it is ich... Hypo and copper resistant ich ??? Geeze.


All i can tell you is my observations with medications and treatments are drasticly different then what alot of people and articles claim. Not all fish can handle hypo like claimed... my fairy wrassse lubbocks anthias lyrtail anthias.. all died in hypo in days.. My flame hawk bloated up pined coned from water retention and died. I had a butterfly pine cone up and die.. flame angel pine cone and die. Now my blue tang is bloated eyes poping out from water retention as well.. The lack of salt in the water is causing fish to retain too much water and they get bloated. Extensive research has yeilded similar results for many other people over decades of interest posts. So why people claim hypo is perfectly safe for all fish but rays and sharks is beyond me because it isnt.

Cupramine has also given me some issues in the past too. But tbh ive had more fish die in hyposalinity then cupramine..

Prazi pro ? Is suppose to be super mild and safe right ? When i did prazi pro in hypo it caused my naso tang to enlarge and bloat so much his intestines were coming out of his anal area... It was horrible i had to do two 50% water changes and carbon like mad to stop it. Thankfully he lived. Upon more research on naso tangs with prazipro many many other people have had the same bloating issue with naso tangs.

So yea.. I still think there is alot we dont know ok n how these treatments effect fish.

While i still like hyposalinity. I will advise in the future to anyone who uses it to becarefull with wrasse. Butterflies. Anthias and other fish.. it clearly causes fish to retain water and get dropsy like symptoms.

 

[jimmaki]

I don't mean to be judgmental, but personally, if I were going to administer some form of treatment be it hypo or copper, I'd first make sure I knew what the ailment was that I was attempting to treat. Usually, using the wrong treatment for a misdiagnosed disease will cause more harm than good and the stress of the treatment will lower the fish's ability to naturally fight off the ailment, while the treatment does nothing to cure the problem.

Over a span of almost 30 years of reef tank "experimenting" … I've found that the less chemicals I use, the fewer large changes in water parameters I either allow or induce, and the more I keep my paws out of the tank … the better all life in the tank flourishes.

I just had a bad bout with ick in the reef tank and the only thing I did was soak the food in garlic to hopefully help the immune systems of the affected fish. This seems to have worked as no fish are showing any of the classic signs of ick, either as small dots on fins and body, rapid breathing, attempts to scrape off parasites on rock and sand, etc.

I'm not saying this will work for your fish since it's not clear what your tang is suffering from, or if it would work if you knew for sure it did have ick. What I would not do is pile cures on top of one another. Trying to boost a fish's immune system is counterproductive when stressing out the fish with chemicals and hypo to the point his eyes are popping out.

If you're killing fish with hypo, perhaps you are either making changes too quickly, making too many changes such as using a chemical treatment with a drastic change in water parameters. Salinity change also change the concentrations of other elements in the water, such as copper. So mixing treatments is not in the fish's best interest and can be lethal more often than curative.

If the fish is eating, give it the best nutrition you can afford and give nature a chance to allow the immune system to do what it is designed to do in the absence of external stressors. If you don't want to go to the trouble of making your own fresh garlic soaking solutions, there is a product called Garlic Guard that I've seen good reviews on.

 

[PCguy21]

I don't mean to be judgmental, but personally, if I were going to administer some form of treatment be it hypo or copper, I'd first make sure I knew what the ailment was that I was attempting to treat. Usually, using the wrong treatment for a misdiagnosed disease will cause more harm than good and the stress of the treatment will lower the fish's ability to naturally fight off the ailment, while the treatment does nothing to cure the problem.

Over a span of almost 30 years of reef tank "experimenting" "¦ I've found that the less chemicals I use, the fewer large changes in water parameters I either allow or induce, and the more I keep my paws out of the tank "¦ the better all life in the tank flourishes.

I just had a bad bout with ick in the reef tank and the only thing I did was soak the food in garlic to hopefully help the immune systems of the affected fish. This seems to have worked as no fish are showing any of the classic signs of ick, either as small dots on fins and body, rapid breathing, attempts to scrape off parasites on rock and sand, etc.

I'm not saying this will work for your fish since it's not clear what your tang is suffering from, or if it would work if you knew for sure it did have ick. What I would not do is pile cures on top of one another. Trying to boost a fish's immune system is counterproductive when stressing out the fish with chemicals and hypo to the point his eyes are popping out.

If you're killing fish with hypo, perhaps you are either making changes too quickly, making too many changes such as using a chemical treatment with a drastic change in water parameters. Salinity change also change the concentrations of other elements in the water, such as copper. So mixing treatments is not in the fish's best interest and can be lethal more often than curative.

If the fish is eating, give it the best nutrition you can afford and give nature a chance to allow the immune system to do what it is designed to do in the absence of external stressors. If you don't want to go to the trouble of making your own fresh garlic soaking solutions, there is a product called Garlic Guard that I've seen good reviews on.

No offense but it was ich So how are you being judgemental ? I lost 1000$ in fish to ich in two tabks. After hypo it stopped.. but i also lost hypo sensative fish so what are you getting at buddy ?

I let nature give it a chance for 4 months it didnt work. Ich just kept taking over all my tangs and dwarf amgels and id lose em like flies... . I spent 1,000$ on fish in one month during hypo to replenish what i lost in 4 months. And in that 1000$ i lost anthias and other hypo sensative fish that i know know cant handle hypo. Trust me (garlic) and homepathic and herbal medicine does jack **** to ich. I tried it and i lost way too much money. Best way to stop it is to eradicate it.. I am no longer a believer in (feeding ) fish to keep ich away hecause its a joke. And im not about to spend a 1000$ in fish again which is a mortage payment for some people just to feed my fish garlic and cross my fingers


Also it was proven by a doctor on one of these forums that garlic inflames the fish liver... and its been my 15+ year experience with fresh water fish that garlic does nothing to entice apetite either... and i tried it with salt water and same results... does nothing.

And now i have 4 tangs and 2 dwarf angels and other fish in two seperate tanks. And not one has got ich since hypo... except my yellow tang which i dunno if its ich or a break out reaction from cupramine in the last 2 weeks.


This is my kole tang before hypo salinity.. he was the onky tang in a 135 gallon tank... Explain to me how stuffing his face with garlic is going to help him ?


Im not compeltetly dismissing what you said... because some fish that were ich resistant actually died in hypo but the fish thqt died from ich made it through hypo with no ich anymore... tbh though id chose a 70$ tang ovwr a 15$ anthias... but ny whole point of my prior post was that it iritates me when ppl say so and so is safe for all fish when in fact it isnt. And tons of ppl including me learned the hard way that some fish cant handle htpo.. naso tangs seem to bloat with praz pro and so forth

 

[ThRoewer]

I don't mean to be judgmental, but personally, if I were going to administer some form of treatment be it hypo or copper, I'd first make sure I knew what the ailment was that I was attempting to treat. Usually, using the wrong treatment for a misdiagnosed disease will cause more harm than good and the stress of the treatment will lower the fish's ability to naturally fight off the ailment, while the treatment does nothing to cure the problem.
...

With most fish I would definitely do hypo as a precautionary measure.
Not only kills it several quite dangerous parasites (Cryptocaryon, skin & gill "flukes",...), slows down Amyloodinium, but it also provides stress relief for the fish.

I actually lost 5 Ventralis Anthias because I was too hesitant to give them a prophylactic treatment before they were eating well. And the few white dots they had I chalked off as at a light Cryptocaryon infection that wasn't urgent enough to be treated immediately - only the "white dots" were not Cryptocaryon trophonts but rather digenean trematodes (skin flukes). And before the fish even looked sick or showed other significant symptoms aside from the occasional scratching they were dead.

Copper and other chemicals or medication I would generally only administer when I had at least a good hunch about what I'm dealing with.