Tbs & Dsb Oolic Sand?????

68551,
Sue, i would like to offer an appology for the distraction away from your questions.
anabolic, aerobic, and anerobic are the three layers need for a DSB to operate properly.
there has to be an oxygen supply in the sandbed to help release the sulfuric gas which will come after the tank cycles.

the cycle is created by the breakdown/denitrification of waste from rock deterioration as it begins to rot.

(FWIW, did you know you can cycle a tank in about a week or so with just a pinch of fish food? and nothing living gives its life for your tank to cycle.)

with sugar grain sized sand you cant have the 3 layers because it compacts to tighly in a DSB of 3-4" and your stars and snails cant efficiently move through the sugar grain packed sand to create the 3 layers of denitrification. therefore you have sulfuric gas pockets forming in compacted places just waiting to escape if disturbed by anything able to do so. (if you move a rock to a new location is a simple example) plus, if you have a reef tank the amount of flow needed to keep it healthy will create a constant sandstorm because the small size of the sand.

the 1/16" diameter sand i mentioned earlier, (before we were interupted by a 14+ year marine theoretical astrophysocist) has more surface area for bacteria to host than the smaller sugar grain or crushed coral put together. look at the 3 of them under a hand held magnifying glass and inspect the surface roughness of each.
the 1/16 dia. has a more pourous surface area per square inch, which allows more benificial bacteria to host/live on. therefore it eats the particulates the stars and snails cant/want eat keeping the sandbed cleaner. BB is microscopic bacteria that eats some nasty stuff.

please allow me to take a restroom break, ill BRB. :D
 
next question:
You've got me on the concre sitting in the ocean curing comment....If not TBS where else can you get LR that has so much life on it?????

my liverock came from www.premiumaquatics.com
i have Fiji, Tonga, Tonga Branch, and Kaelini LR and rubble rock (RR) in my tank and sump.
this rock is mostly collected and brought up from the floors of reefs that have been damaged mainly due to storms. its more or less dead or dying naturally as intended by mother nature in a way to replenish herself as the ocean has done since its creation.
it has BB on it just as the TBS does, just not red and green seaweed, tunicates, clams, etc. (that may or maynot survive the cycle) as stated in another TBS post.
so, you either spend alot of time picking off the constantly growing seaweed or you purchase a fish such as a FoxFace Lo or a FoxFace Rabbit Fish to do it for you.

I DID NOT COME TO TBS TO INTENSIONALLY SLAM THEM OR ANYONE AFFILIATED WITH TBS. I SAW YOUR POST IN THE UNASWERED THREAD PAGE! I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST TBS.
I JUST WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE UNDERSTAND HOW A DSB WORKS.
 
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Re: Tbs & Dsb Oolic Sand?????

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13392664#post13392664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
I'm just getting ready to upgrade to a 92 gal corner reef ready tank with a sump....I had a 75 gal with crushed coral & really don't want large particle substrade....I understand if I order "the package" I have to take the sand that comes with it....What I really want is OOLIC sugar sized sand with indo pacific mini stars & nass snails, copods, etc....Please advise what would be the issues or problems to buy the sand I want (DSB) & just order my rock from TBS.....Is there something I am missing????

sand and rock:

use the package, it works.

when folks like Dr. Ron are talking about the sand they are really making a few points about what needs to happen.

TBS sand is "Real Live Sand" it is a natural mix of sizes of particles and has plenty of the fine size you are looking for.

the TBS package / formula is not a DSB it is a 2 to 3 inch sand bed.

you can get more sand and have a deeper bed, you can have richard sell you more but....

make sure you really want that DSB, there are pros and cons.

what TBS / richard is doing is to give you a sand bed that has the life, has the room for stars, worms, snails etc... and does not get to much of a "dead zone"

if you build a 6-8 inch deep bed then the top inch has all the "pods" and stars snails etc.... the bottom 3-4 inches will only have bacteria and have an anearobic (sp) area that can be usefull or can be a problem.

do you want a 6-8 inch bed or a shallower one?

if you just want a good live sand bed with good pods and stuff then the package will get you that.
 
reefnetworth, In addition to the rest of your incorrect statements and myriad typos, I'm sure we're all still anxiously waiting here for your defense to your rediculous comments on how TBS rock is nothing more than cement 'curing' and also releasing these 'toxins' in the ocean for a few months.

Have you taken a look at the TBS website yet as I suggested earlier to learn you were wrong on all counts?

....and you claim you have both seen and held TBS and still state that's it's made of cement?? In reality my guess is you wouldn't know the composition of a piece of TBS aquacultured rock if it bit you in the arse :-) Please refrain from passing along bogus info on a public website and even worse in the RC sponsors own forum as some new people here may actually take your remarks seriously.
 
HowardW are you in a bad mood or something?
i highly douht you have 14+ years marine experience since all you seem to care about are typos and calling me childish names.
i have about 20 pages i printed from TBS in 05' im going to discuss in a moment.
thanx for your patience. :rolleyes:
 
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Tampa Bay Saltwater
The Florida Live Rock Farmers.

printed in 05'
first page:

'Ongoin Maintenance and Online Resources'

There really isnt much to it. It's all about dilligence. You will need to watch your tank carefully and be smart about what you put into it. You will find as many people to give you tips about how to take care of your tank as there are aquarist out there. Everyone's tank is different. Here are a few of our "tips" for a good, long-lasting tank.

Use a reverse osmosis/deionizer (RO/DI) water filter for your top off water. (Or for making saltwater for a water change.)

FEEDING
Due to the high number of feeders that you get with you live rock, you'll need to feed your tank a phytoplankton food such as DT's, Micro Vert, etc. every other day. You can use a turkey baster or a childrens oral syringe to direct food at some inverts (for example, you can feed christmas tree worms from behind, so that the food flows directly into their feeders).

IME, that not a good idea for a new set-up. your parms such a N02/N03, NH3/NH4 will skyrocket in less than two weeks (between water changes). And the chance of christmas tree worms surviving in captivity for even six months is about zero to none. that is if they live from Fla to Pa. during shipping.
 
OK HowardW,
i did not state it was chuncks of concrete such as quick-crete from a 50# bag.
i stated it was aquacultured which means it isnt REAL live rock. since REAL LR is made in the ocean not a concrete mixing barrel with some arroagonite, shells and sand and crushed coral with air bubbles in it, and what would possibly bind all these ingredients together? HUH? :confused:

aquacultured rock, once it has (that binder stuff) dryed, its placed into a boat and driven to a leased and protected place of the ocean, which by the way, took years for these guys to get permits for!
once the rock is placed in the ocean, IT HAS TO CURE! just like in your tank. it releases nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, etc. into the ocean. they are TOXINS, but, with the mass of the ocean they have little to no effect on the environment. BUT, HowardW it has to CURE for it to become live rock and grow benificial bacteria on it to become live. once the curing process has completed it will adapt creatures from the ocean such as crabs, good and bad, anemone, good and bad, pistol shrimp, which can crack a 55G tank with the SMACK of the pistol claw which is appx. equal to a 22 caliber riffle round.
I NEVER ONCE SAID IT WAS BAD ROCK, OR NOT TO PURCHASE IT. ALL I ASKED WAS DOES SUE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AQUACULTERED ROCK AND TRUE LR?
I think what these guys have accomplished is truely amazing. getting the govt. to even allow them to set-up such a project deserves a Nobel prize a heck of alot more than friggin AL Gore! BTW, where is the jack-*** buttons on this page? :lol:
they have worked their butts off and they have made something you can place in your tank without having to steal it from a living reef with a hammer and chizzle so someday your grandchildren can snorkle or dive a real reef that is still around for them, and their granchildren to enjoy too!
i read back through the pages i have and looked at the pics of the guys in the boat when they first started doing this and decided it was to much to write down, maybe you can find it in the artifacts somewhere on RC, dont know...
 
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im going to make some coffee and stare at my tank until the lights come on and watch everybody wake up in my little piece of the ocean.
i hope you all have a blessed Sunday, and enjoy your day!
JDMJR :D

THE END...
 
Ok....So, why all the talk about oolic sand in past posts....Is that now considered a no no???? I looked at a website (which I am desparately trying to locate again) that showed magnification of various sands & the oolic sand was the only one that didn't have ragged edges & was perfectly round thus providing a more hospitible surface for any sand sifter....
Reefnetwort & Howard, you both bring up some valid points....I think Reefnetworth...If the "rock" is made of natural materials with a "binder" then the rock is going to leach off the composition that the rock was constructed with...(which is all natural except for the "binder material")....If there are no "bad elements" consisting in the binder then no problem....Seems like taking something man made (ingredients provided by God) is a good thing if it keeps man from disturbing the real reef!!!!
Howard....I think reefnetworth is making your point when he talks about keeping the reef for our grandchildren....I just have one question....I watched the video on the boat collecting the rock & the rocks were not underwater in the buckets....I thought they were kept underwater from collection to your home....
I love all of the "extras" that come on the rock...I am restarting my reef right this time & just want to be sure I get enough opinions to substantiate a wise decision....I think all of this discussion brings up valid points on both sides....Can Roger pipe in????
 
i just started my coffee and came to turn this off, i cant beleive your still here :eek2:
thank you for your comments, but oolic sand is a no no!!! you dont want smooth, you want rough, more bacteria per square inch. it does your tank much better than any stars or sandsifters ever will. the more BB the better! sifters can crawl over it and never get a scratch. :thumbsup:
 
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I really don't want the look of a bb tank...I want sand for the sifters to sift (the ocean isn't bb)....I am trying to make logical sense of all of this before I plunk down money on something I will be sorry for later....The sand in tsb looks like very big grains to me reminding me of the problems I had with my first tank....My first tank crashed due to crushed coral that leached nitrate like a factory....Which is why I am prone to go in the opposite direction with oolic sand....If you pile up oolic sand (& all of them are smooth circles) it seems to me that the surface area would be greater because the water could get between the sand thus allowing a flow-through bed....what about the de-nitrification of a dsb??? Is that no longer valid???? I am getting so confused...Just when I thought I had it figured out I now have even MORE questions!!!!
 
TBS sand pic was probably under MH lighting its not that white, its kinda brownish-white in real life.
the denitrification is the breakdown of eneaten food, fish poo, detritus. the beneficial bacteria and your pods and sifters will be a part of it, along with the your snails who will get most of the big pieces of food! everybody gets something, they eat it all, yummy!!
 
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Opinion

Opinion

I think this little debate is AWESOME!! Many valid and proven points and tons of of theroy.. Theory is just that though and not proven. Much like a opinion. The argument is informative but childish. Keep it up though since I learn quite a bit from each of you. I'm just starting my Red Sea 34 in the bedroom.
 
TBS sand looks very dark, thats true I would prefer a lighter sand....What I really don't like is the particle size since I had the nitrate problem with my last tank. I know the sifters will get most of the uneaten food etc....I just spent WWWAAAYYY too much time vacuuming gunk out of the CC last time & want the sifters to do the lions share of it instead this time....I figure if bb (benificial bacteria) can get through all of a round sand to the bottom of the tank I will have a better chance of success this time...Nitrates kept me from being able to keep snails & inverts alive long enough to eat the junk in the substrade...
Which brings me to another point....How do the inverts in Part 1 stay alive through the cycle of the new set up?????
 
ps.....Best of luck to you LL9!!!! THIS IS A FASCINATING HOBBY TO SAY THE LEAST!!!!....After my "crash" I am even more determined to make the RIGHT choices & have the tank of my dreams...Killing all the inhabitants of my last tank almost kept me from starting over I felt so much guilt....
 
:lol: thanx, thelastlaugh9. i try to have fun with it and still help people understand what i have experienced and what ive seen in my own tanks. ive owned 7 at one time and now im down to just 150 and put all my attention into one tank.
i used to spend my entire Sunday doing waterchanges and testing and adding CaCl2, Alk, and MG to the highside.
 
I am soooooo bummed that I have to go to work....I stayed on way longer than I should have....Can't wait to get home & see what other posts have been added.....
Ps...Would love more imput on my origional first 2 questions.....
 
68551, the best looking sand IMHO is the Fiji Pink!
the grain size is perfect and its white with irredescent pink hidden deep in it.
 
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