Tbs & Dsb Oolic Sand?????

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13438370#post13438370 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
HMMMM>>>>>twilight zone!!!!.....

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program.....

How is it that the critters in Part 1 don't die as being part of a newly cycled tank????
Is it because they already have been in with the same rock & sand & the only trama is being moved & newly set up???

Figuerres....You live in Tampa, ....Are you part of TBS?????

A customer who has the dumb luck to live in the right place :)

At one time TBS had a small store-front and was open on saturdays to walk in customers.

I found out about tbs and decided I wanted a reef tank.
at that time I lived in St. Pete just across the bay from tampa.
went to the store and met Richard the first time back then.

that was my 55 gallon reef tank, I had done saltwater before that but not reef.
that was about 2002 I think, maby 2003 ??
over time I have had a few ups and downs, when hurricanes cut power I had a bit of a crash, and Ihad to move the 55 two times.

when I moved to tampa and got set I moved up to a 90 gallon tank. I donated the 55 and a bunch of gear to a local school.

So between moves and stuff I have went back to TBS a few times to add new stuff. esp when I moved from the 55 to the 90.

So I have talked to richard a few times and he knows where I Live. and I have been on this web site all that time as new customers have came and asked questions etc....

I have a non-formal background in all kinds of science, I love to read and learn, I have an old Kodak 4 megapixel camera with a macro lens attachment. it takes nice pictures and helps me ID stuff. I also have a bunch of books that I lookup stuff in.
in highschool I had a couple of good teachers who helped me learn about science, I can use any of the books on plant and animal ID, I have used roger tory books to id insects and plants.
for a job I am a computer software developer. http://www.morriscs.com/ has a short bit on me.
in the mid 90's I was the head of the tech and IT at an ISP with over 25,000 dialup users.

that's me. always trying to learn more stuff. :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13438370#post13438370 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
HMMMM>>>>>twilight zone!!!!.....

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program.....

How is it that the critters in Part 1 don't die as being part of a newly cycled tank????
Is it because they already have been in with the same rock & sand & the only trama is being moved & newly set up???

Figuerres....You live in Tampa, ....Are you part of TBS?????

well back to your main question:

partly yes, if you have a bunch of sand and rock that came right out of the gulf and you put them into a good tank / setup you are binging in the microorganisims and macroorganisims that make the ecology work.

you do have some die off as the stuff is moved. but with good water changes and monitoring you can keep that to a minimum.
it's ecology and biology in action.
and stuff is though, life finds a way.
 
You are VERY lucky to live so close!!!
Have you noticed new things in the past couple years that have shown up on the live rock Richard collects???/

What about the "critters question???? And is there a phone # for TBS????
 
Richard deals primarily with email so you won't find a number. However, unless he's out of town or diving, he usually responds pretty quickly.

Just to let you know, the day that you receive your package is most likely the day that it is shipped and also the day that it is packed. It probably doesn't spend 20 minutes out of water.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13438628#post13438628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
You are VERY lucky to live so close!!!
Have you noticed new things in the past couple years that have shown up on the live rock Richard collects???/

What about the "critters question???? And is there a phone # for TBS????

The critters can tolerate ammonia to a certain level, which is why during part 1 Richard recommends to keep ammonia below 1 ppm. As long as you do only the bare minimum necessary to keep it below 1 you should be fine. Keep in mind bigger water changes = longer cycling time.

Plus part 1 doesn't have as big a bioload as part 2 so the only critters are usually snails and crabs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13435068#post13435068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by figuerres
I think if I got the question right then yes.

if you setup the tank and sump and get the water going then it can help with the later steps.

a lot of the system needs to get "broke in" like the inside of the plumbing, over time they get a kind of "slime coat" of bacteria.

also getting the skimmer ready to skim good before adding too much ....

for your sump's sand bed I would size it and order some sand and a few rocks from richard to put in after a wait of say 2 weeks.
that should give some time for the tank to get going a bit and by adding some live sand and rock to the sump / fuge it will add more bacteria and plankton to the system.

then add part 1 of the main package... and so on.

go slow... relax...

Figuerres is right on the money let me walk you through my own steps at a high level.

1. Assume for a moment you have all the plumbing tank and equipment setup.

2. I run a fresh water test with RO/DI water verify nothing is leaking, everything is in smooth running order. I do this for several days.

3. Then I will add salt water to the tank and run it for about a week adjusting lighting and skimmers as neccessary. This will also make sure all the lines are clean and that all the equipment is "broken in." I do not want to have any problems in later stages and I always find something that needs adjusting.

4. I then take all the water out and wipe everything down. Refill with RO/Di water, salt the water and give it a couple of days to settle down.

5. In my case I run two 100 gallon sumps one for equipment, monitors, probes and heater each of my overflows dump into this sump first. My over flows are also independent of each other. If one is blocked the other can ussually handle the load. The second sump is feed by the first ( note I have 1" over flows in the display tank but I have two 2" overflows that feed the second sump from sump one) and is for adding sand at a depth of about 1", 2" at the most. Micro's and pod and mysis farming area, no preditors in this baby. Two return pumps are located here if one fail the other is still moving the water into the main tank.

6. Wait for the tank to cycle and stabalize. Test, Test, Test.

7. Order rock from Richard and follow his instructions explicitly. I never deviate from the directions he gives. My package sand goes in the display tank along with the live rock. If I need to add any liverock to the sump I will typically order additional from Richard. I typically put two or three medium size pieces in the sump for pod cover.

Additional notes:

I do not place any lighting over the equipment sump (sump one) and run six VHO T5's over sump two (16 hours a day opposite the main tanks lighting). More lighting than needed I just happen to have an old setup I saved from previous tanks.

Sump one has about 75 gallons of water in it, sump two has about 50 gallons of water in it. if I lose all power I have enough water capacity to prevent any flooding. I mimic several failures during my testing including a complete power outage. Typically I draw 25 gallons of water out of the main tank due to the return lines feeding water back into the sumps. If I draw more than that I adjust the return line noozels enough that they do not create micro bubbles.

This is a little exterme and is some case may not be all that neccessary but I like the tank running with some live sand and micros in sump two ahead of time.

I can not stress enough whether you use this process or not to follow Richards instructions and do not get in a hurry.

Sump setup sideview sump on the right is sump one and the left is sump two.

:D

DSC00012.JPG
 
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WOW!!!! I AM impressed!!!!....
I am being very anal at this point & am not in a hurry....I just want to do it RIGHT!!!!
Drunes....Your system is failsafe!!!....You must have had a system failure or you are a quick study!!!!
Just a Q....Why would you set up the whole system, run it for a week, then drain it down & wipe down & restart....Doesen't that kill all of the great bacteria you had started in the system???

To g8gxp....Why would larger water changes=longer cycling??? I thought bacteria grew on sand, tank walls & rock that all needed to stay underwater or bacteria would die....
 
a few notes:

1) you can get the bacteria by just cycling water, the spores are in the air all around us. you get them faster with a "live sample" but they can live thru a short dry out or blown on the wind.

2) I was brought up with the saying "the only foolish question is the one you don't ask"

3) in the hobby I have picked up the expression "Only bad things happen fast"

4) water chnages, what has to happen is to get a kind of "critical mass" thing going, for a complete "cycle" you need to go from ammonia to N2 to N3 to N (gas)
each stage happens when different groups of bacteria find the "food" they need to reproduce and do thier thing.
so for example if the amount of amonia never gets to 1.00 then it will take longer for the next bact. to get enough food to get going.
the last stage of going back to Nitrogen gas happens in the anerobic areas inside the rock or sand.
so like the classic domminos trick each depends on the prior ones to happen.
 
That is presicely why I would even like to set up my tank fill w saltwater & even start with amonia so it can go through the complete cycle of amonia, nitrite & nitrate to set up the proper bacterias BEFORE I send for Part 1....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13440417#post13440417 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
Q....Why would you set up the whole system, run it for a week, then drain it down & wipe down & restart....Doesen't that kill all of the great bacteria you had started in the system???

Most everything you purchase has some kind of film on it. You may or may not be able to see it and you may or may not be able to clean it off. This new system I have now will get torn down today for the final fill. One thing you will notice without sand in the bottom of the tank a white looking dust on the bottom of the tank.

These are particles of dust and other contamination that was in the PVC pipe and areas I can not reach from sitting at the manufacturing plant, being transported and then sitting in Home Depot for months on end. A majority of it is cleaned off after I cut and clean the pipe. However not all of it.

Example take a Pepsi pour a small amount on a counter top in two places and call them sample one and sample two.

If you clean up sample one one right away with a dry cloth it is easy to wipe up.

(WARNING: Step two will make wives and mothers very unhappy :lol: )

Let sample two sit over night and try cleaning it the next morning you can not clean it with a dry cloth you need a wet cloth. It is more difficult to clean than sample one even with a wet cloth you will need a little elbow grease.

The theory is let the water clean ever nook and cranny remove the water and wipe things down and your initial tank setup will be much cleaner. Some of the bacteria will remain in the PVC and seed the final fill and to figuerres point earlier.

I have never had a problem until I tried to rush something. This all takes time but is worth it in the end. Marine husbandry after this point is all dependent on you keeping contamination out of the tank.

In the ocean a small amount of contamination can be contained and managed by the ocean with little to no impact on the whole. In a contained reef system a small amount of contamination is deadly in short order.

There is no evidence to this fact because we seldomly get all the facts from hobbiest. I would tell you that any sudden tank crashes are the result of some external contamination being introduced into the tank.

Long explination but hopefully it answered the question.

Newtons 3rd Law or motion. For ever action is an equal and opposite reaction. Without getting to scientific there is a constant battle (motion) between good bacteria and bad bacteria. Contamination will upset the balance.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13440417#post13440417 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
Drunes....Your system is failsafe!!!....You must have had a system failure or you are a quick study!!!!

I have been doing salt since 1981 - 1982 time frame. I have had good days and bad days in this hobby. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am going to sound like a TBS commercial but having done this in Europe and North America I have never found better live rock than I get from Richard.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13440983#post13440983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Drunes
I have been doing salt since 1981 - 1982 time frame. I have had good days and bad days in this hobby. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am going to sound like a TBS commercial but having done this in Europe and North America I have never found better live rock than I get from Richard.

:D

Yeah, I know what you mean.... more than one time folks have wondered if I work for richard, not only do I like his rock but I live here and have met and talked to him more than once over time....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13443695#post13443695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
Can't you just run RO water through the system WITHOUT salt & have the same results???

Can you keep the following creatures in RO water: Purple Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, Coral Beauty, Firefish, Mandarin, Red scooter blenny, Divided Leopard Wrasse,Watchman Goby, Fuge w/copepods & Macroalgae, Asst snails???????????????

It is highly likely that without the salt the results would be the same as keeping a Purple Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, Coral Beauty, Firefish, Mandarin, Red scooter blenny, Divided Leopard Wrasse,Watchman Goby, Fuge w/copepods & Macroalgae, Asst snails in RO water!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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That is part of it. The other part is priming the lines for the final setup. I will take some pics and show you the results from a flush, they will vary based on how you are setup. keep in mind as I stated somewhere before I do take this to an extreme. :eek1:

Like any of the other experianced reefers you find here we are dilligent about having a clean setup from the start.

Basic checklist

- Does anything leak? (No)
- If yes stop here and dry things out to fix it.

First day I put water RO/DI water in the over flows the return line bulkhead was cracked. Dryed it out over night and fixed it the next morning and retested.

- Is everything running (Yes)
- What needs to be tuned
- Skimmers (Yes)
- Wave maker (Yes)
- Flow heads (Yes)
- Any mechanical filters (Yes)
- Drip lines working? (Yes)
- Heaters working (Yes)
- Heat consistant 78.5 night - 80.5 day (not good)
- (Item I am current working on wanting 77.5 - 78.5)
- After running the pumps do I have the same return volumn (Yes)
- Am I flushing garbage from the lines (micro filters) (Yes)
- Was clean last two days so it should be done
- Lighting and if you are running a controller is it functioning
- Made several program changes to the tank
- Monitoring Temp, PH, salinity and ORP in that order
- ORP is only and indicator (not much use otherwise)

New tank syndrome hit today with a diatom bloom, not a problem it is going to get cleaned again means slime has build up on the inside of the PVC.

So if I can get the heat issue resolved it looks like I will be in business.
 
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