The inwall 380 starfire reborn

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10007112#post10007112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbui2
you dont think it might be from the skimmer?

I know for a fact that it isn't. If you look at how our filtration is set up, there is almost no way for a bubble to make it from the skimmer back to the tank. Aside from the two 150g sumps it would have to flow through (with a combined linear length of 12'), it would have to make it through 2 bubble traps (one filled with bioballs the other with small rubble, both to cultivate critters and cut down on bubbles), one durso, two "underflow walls" and 4 linear foot of floating chaeto (although not in that particular order)

Like I mentioned earlier, it would be one tough bubble if it actually made it back to our display tank

 

[mrcrab]

So...are you absolutely positive it's not from the skimmer?

Did you have the bubbles before you plumbed the skimmer?

 

[Goodwin9]

Do you have syphon breaks on your return lines?

 

[cbui2]

LFS down here has 800gal setup 120"L x 48"W x 30"H with his ETSS skimmer and create tons of microbubbles in the tank.

 

[jnarowe]

140W is sweet for that skimmer. Very impressive.

As far as micro-bubbles go, make sure you don't have any vortecs created by the return pump or Vortech MP-40s. As previously mentioned, siphon breaks may help. And if the bio-balls are at the end of the loop, check to see if algal growth is causing bubbles, as could any macro in the system.

I have a 2-sump system too, and the only way I get micro-bubbles in the display is on a re-start. I also have a syphon break built into my manifold.

Another big culprit in micro bubbles is the use of Loc-Line, but I don't think your are.

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10007698#post10007698 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrcrab
So...are you absolutely positive it's not from the skimmer?

Did you have the bubbles before you plumbed the skimmer?

Yes, I am pretty sure, but I don't really know if we had them before or not. For the last couple of months we had the tank running on cobbled together plumbing, used to make our old skimmer work with the plumbing and sumps, but still set the stage for when the new skimmer arrived (so I wouldn't need to completely redo the plumbing to accomodate the Volcano). For that reason I was not very critical of our water clarity, mainly because we were forced to have the Deltec skimmer drain into the last chamber in the sump right before the return pump one, so I expected some micro bubbles, not necessarily coming out of the skimmer, but from the water entering the sump as it was (not in a bubble tower or anything else.. since it was only temporary). So I guess we always had this "issue", it is really hard to tell.. now I have become much more critical about the water quality and clarity and that is why I brought it up now.

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10007723#post10007723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Goodwin9
Do you have syphon breaks on your return lines?

I have a syphon break in the drains, but not the returns. I have them high enough up that breaks were not necessary, but I can see your point where that would be the first place to check.. I was considering redoing the 2 returns and adding syphon breaks into them.. I will make sure to place them below the water line if we do add the syphon breaks.. thanks

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10008142#post10008142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbui2
LFS down here has 800gal setup 120"L x 48"W x 30"H with his ETSS skimmer and create tons of microbubbles in the tank.

The last chamber of the first/top sump has no discernable micro bubbles in it. The sump that it drains into is just clear, realtively calm water, even more so once it gets past it's first bubble trap (with the bio balls in it also)

as an aside, I don't worry about the bio balls becuase they are never exposed to air, to unless they become clogged with detrius, which is easy enough to clean out, they should become a nitrate issue, and I already see pods and little shrimp living in them .

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10008348#post10008348 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
140W is sweet for that skimmer. Very impressive.

It runs more consistently when I have it tuned to run around 160W - 170W, which is still impressive for a skimmer this size... once it is broken in I am hoping for a consistent operating consumption of around 140W - 150W

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10008348#post10008348 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe As far as micro-bubbles go, make sure you don't have any vortecs created by the return pump or Vortech MP-40s. As previously mentioned, siphon breaks may help. And if the bio-balls are at the end of the loop, check to see if algal growth is causing bubbles, as could any macro in the system.

I have a 2-sump system too, and the only way I get micro-bubbles in the display is on a re-start. I also have a syphon break built into my manifold.

Another big culprit in micro bubbles is the use of Loc-Line, but I don't think your are. [/B]

Our Vortecs are tuned back a bit, and we only every once in a while get one that pulls a vortec down.. maybe twice a day, give or take. And that usually ends up producing larger bubbles that dissippate (sp?) pretty rapidly.

the last 4' of open sump and the last 1' long "return" chamber are clear of any detectable bubbles, but I will double check for algae produced bubbles (which would be nitrogen bubbles)

and no, we are not using any loc-line.

I have some suspicions about what we think are the micro-bubbles... but I need to do a little more research before I post my thoughts.. I had a long conversation with Scott today and got some good feedback on things to expect with the skimmer, and the tank... more to follow

 

[jnarowe]

How about CO2?

 

[Sparkss]

well, here is what I have come to suspect.. and what I plan to/need to confirm over the next couple of days :

I now don't believe that they are micro-bubbles, but possibly sand, stirred up by our returns

At first I suspected micropbubbles because I would purposefully stir up the detrius that had settled into the bottom sump during it's use w/o the Volcano (hopefully w/ the Volcano we won't see any more detrius actually make it to the sumps). Once I stirred it up there would be a cloud of in blown into the tank by the return pump. The corals actually seemed to really enjoy this "storm", but that is beside the point . Within minutes the tank would clear to the same level it was prior to my stirring up the detrius.. to our "baseline" clarity level. But no matter what we could not get it any "clearer", so I assumed that it was not suspended particulate matter, since the skimmer was pulling out darned near everything that went through it.. so that only left micro-bubbles. And at first I noticed some bubbles accumlating under the return lines and other areas in the tank.. but those I attribute to a chiller return line issue in the sump (something I rectified last evening). Now I am not seeing any bubbles collecting anywhere within the display tank... so I went back to look at everything "fresh". We had increased the flow through the tank/sump when we brought the new skimmer online, and now I think that we may be stirring up sand with the return flow, and what we are seeing is the sand "dust", or even small pieces of the substrate flying about. One thing we did notice today (yes, only 2 dyas since bringing the skimmer online) was that while the water looked "dirty", it also looked clearer, if that makes any sense. To better try to describe it.. the water inbetween the floating particles (be they sand, micro-bubbles, whatever) is much much clearer than it was before. I can make out details on the back corals now that I couldn't before, and it appears that more light is entering the tank (the corners look lighter than they did last week). All of this with the "sand storm" still apparent. So I am not really sure what the devil is going on.. but we have 2 courses of action.. 1. Sit back and do nothing for a week or so to let everything settle in and settle down to see if it subsides, or 2. Start tinkering with return lines, return nozzles, sump setup, skimmer parameters, etc to see if we can resolve the perceived issue.

Trouble with #2 is that it has more likelihood to casue more problems than it might fix.. so unless I find anything major during more research tonight, we will probably be going with #1 for now

 

[Sparkss]

Oh, I forgot to add that scott told us today that we should start off with our water level at the bottom of the twistlock and that optimally it should be in the neck, to the bottom of hte colelction cup. He said that doing so would greatly increase our skimming ability (Nearly double out output, I think he said).

I don't think that we will be raising the water level any time too soon since we are already seeing some bleaching on the top edges of our higher placed corals. I attribute this to the increased water clarity mentioned in my previous post (despite the "baseline" sand ? storm). I don't want to increase our skimming ability too much faster, to allow our corals a better chance to adapt. I also plan to chip off and move a couple of the impacted corals lower in the tank for now, just to play it safe

 

[Sparkss]

new Vortec driver showed up today. It did turn out to be water damage, although I am still not sure how the **** that happened . But at least we now have all 4 pumps running and I am going out of my way to ensure that I don't need to replace a driver like that again.

Nothing else really to report

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10008809#post10008809 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sparkss
Oh, I forgot to add that scott told us today that we should start off with our water level at the bottom of the twistlock and that optimally it should be in the neck, to the bottom of hte colelction cup. He said that doing so would greatly increase our skimming ability (Nearly double out output, I think he said).

it wont double production like you would think in gallons or quarts a day. it will increase performance ecause the solids that will normally cake up on the riser tube will be puked out into the cup whick will keep the riser tube clean and not decrease the performance. that will kee the skimmer performing at optiom levels all week long. but on your skimmer things may be different with the wet neck on there. we will just have to see how that test goes and if it works the way it is designed to.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10008809#post10008809 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sparkss
I don't think that we will be raising the water level any time too soon since we are already seeing some bleaching on the top edges of our higher placed corals. I attribute this to the increased water clarity mentioned in my previous post (despite the "baseline" sand ? storm). I don't want to increase our skimming ability too much faster, to allow our corals a better chance to adapt. I also plan to chip off and move a couple of the impacted corals lower in the tank for now, just to play it safe

sorry to hear this. i hope your corals come out of this with little or no RTNing.

on a side note there is one thing you can do it determin if it is micro bubbles or if its detritus in the water. shut down all your vortec pumps for 30 mins and point all the input lines up in such a way they dont create sand storms or eddies in the water. then see what the tank looks like. it it is alot clearer looking then you are just removing all the dust from the tank. the skimmer should help to remove that over the next few weeks to the point you dont see it any more.

 

[Sparkss]

I considered alternately shutting down the Vortecs and then the return pump to see if either one had any impact on the suspended "whatever", then if the return pump did have an impact, I would redirect the return nozzles as you had suggested and see if that resolved the problem. I was considering something similar anyways, but for different reasons. This just gives me more motivation and intiative to go ahead and just do it . Unfortunately I don't know when I will get to it. This next weekend is already pretty much fully allocated for other, non-tank related tasks *bummer*

As for the coral's reaction(s), I knew full well that it was a possibility, once the water started to clear. So far it is just 2 of the highest placed corals in our tank, and they are just showing a hint of bleaching on their uppermost edges. Definitely nothing to set off any major alarm bells.. but thank you for your concern

 

[hahnmeister]

I have a couple questions about your last pics Tom. Shouldnt the water level be higher... at the height of the twist loc where the reducer is finished reducing, to prevent buildup in that part?

Also, is the wetneck working, or havent you turned it on yet?

It would seem that the wetneck isnt on yet, and it might not work well if the water level is that low.

 

[Sparkss]

Hahn,

You are pretty much dead on with all of your observations and assessments.

Yes, the water should be higher, but I am going to need to do a combination of a couple of things to make that happen due to how I have it plumbed now, with the height of the "drain overflow pipe" (the highest pipe on the back wall, not to be confused with the "tank overflows" themselves), and also the top level of our tank's dursos in the tank overflows. (you can see these in the pictures posted above)

1. take one of the pieces of foam out from under the skimmer to lower it. This would require some replumbing of the inlet and possibly even the skimmer outlet to the sump. There is only so far I can lower it before the outlet to the sump won't clear the top of the sump.

2. Re do the plumbing and maybe have the skimmer feed come off of the vertical drain pipe on the wall behind it, instead of the lower horizontal one. That and/or put a valve in the drain overflow pipe to shut it off and force the water to go through the skimmer. That would sort of defeat part of hte overflow pipe's purpose (as an "emergency relief valve" or a "backup drain" if the skimmer ever got clogged up or anything else crazy like that. It was also intended to carry the tank drain water to the sump if/when we take the skimmer offline for maintenance and cleaning.. but a valve still works for that, I just need to remember to open it up before shutting off the skimmer feed valve and draining the skimmer .

I may end up doing a combination of those 2 actions, I really need to do some measuring and sit down and think everything through before I start cutting on any pipes . Although there is already some water making it's way to the sump through the drain overflow pipe, something that bugs me since you can see in the picture that the overflow pipe is well above the water level in the skimmer.. but I can only guess that the back pressure is what is forcing the water to travel up that way.. the vavle in the overflow pipe and/or moving the skimmer feed to the vertical pipe are also intended to address this occurrence

The wet neck... no, it is not on. I need to adjust a few things to bring it into service and just have not gotten to it yet. It is all plumbed in and I tested that it flows, but it is not ready to go into full service yet. Scott also told me the same as you, that with the water that low I would end up with alot of extra "crud" collecting on the skimmer (and a big hit to skimming efficiency) and that the wet neck might be able to curb that and allow me to skim with the lower water level (if options #1 and #2 above don't pan out). But I have to say that even with it being less than optimal it still does a great job.. I can only imagine how it will do once I get everything setup right.

Any suggestions on which approach would be the best ? I have some ideas in my head about which one I prefer, but would really welcome any feedback or if you can maybe think of an option #3 that I overlooked ? Thanks

 

[Psionicdragon]

Thanks for everything Tom,

You gave me a few good ideas for setting up my tank. Hopefully I can get a skimmer as nice as yours (and as huge haha).

MORE PICS! =p

 

[madmike]

maybe i missed it somewhere, but what is the wet neck? A self cleaning head?

 

[Sparkss]

a wet neck is an optional skimmer accessory, similar in end result to a SCH, but different in design. Basically water continuously flows down the inside of the skimmer neck giving the skimmate a very thin layer of water on which to travel/slide up the neck on. This typically reduces the amount of gunk deposited on the skimmer neck and improves skimming by extending the cleaning cycle, similar to how a SCH operates.

HTH