andbigdaddy2
New member
While my question may have seemed slanted toward LR being better what i wanted to know was weather when cut open they were the same. So no need for the box your preaching to the choir.
The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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Neptune777
Premium Member
I have used Calcium Chloride in my latest batches using Peladow and the gray Type I/II portland cement. You only need 2% volume of calcium chloride in the mix (dissolved in water) to be effective at speeding up the cure by 2/3. I will test the PH in a day or so after the salt release. I tried this on Quikwall but gave up because I didn't like the results of Quikwall.....as I mentioned earlier.
Neptune777
Premium Member
No it will not look the same on a macro level because the animals you are looking for were never introduced to begin with. On a microscopic level I would bet that they are very similar.
By the way.....I was just joking earlier about being on a soap box......Capiche?
Neptune777
Premium Member
Neptune777
Premium Member
Not really.....Has anyone tried growing coral on a perlcrete rock yet? I have not had a chance to try it myself.
Insane Reefer
New member
Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/aquaculture/files/F00CE52705F64671B8C98D0868BFB18F.pdf
Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus
Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color.
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.
Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...
And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/aquaculture/files/F00CE52705F64671B8C98D0868BFB18F.pdf
Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus
Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color.
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.
Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...
And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high
andbigdaddy2
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10498267#post10498267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
Polyblend is reef safe. MSDS
Here is a pick of a grout rock made in December. It was in my tank in 10 days of making it.
Colors avalable.
I'd like to see rock made with lipstic #420 mixed with captians blue #387 to make a coraline purple color.
Nice! Why do you think it had a shorter cure time 10 days is a lot less than others are saying for portland. When this product has portland in it.
Neptune777
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499421#post10499421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/aquaculture/files/F00CE52705F64671B8C98D0868BFB18F.pdf
Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus
Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color.
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.
Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...
And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high
"But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying."
Although the worms might be beneficial....they are not "necessary". Same goes for Pods, corraline etc......show me a tank that does not survive without the presence of these items and then I will agree that they are needed to sustaine corals in captivity.
Peladow is a brand....it's a de-icer sold at HD, Lowes, Sams, Walmart etc...but tends to be seasonal. Yes the rock did set up faster. I am not convinced yet that this will cause a quicker drop in PH......tests will determine that. Check out Randy Holmes Farley's articles on Two-part Solutions (Ca Chloride is one of the Ingredients and he lists suppliers)
A simple perlcrete frag plug would be a good test....I know I mentioned using Pelite just a short while ago in this thread...
and I have not personally put any into a system (although I have made several pieces......) I am just not comfortable saying it is reef safe unless we pass this last test. Algae will grow on just about anything....corals are another story.
Insane Reefer
New member
Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious
So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...
:sad2:
So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.
EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious
So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...
:sad2:
So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.
EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.
Last edited:
Neptune777
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499689#post10499689 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious
So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...
:sad2:
So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.
EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.
Happy anniversary!
Insane Reefer
New member
Would something like this be an acceptable test subject?
What sort of corals did you have in mind? It could take a while for something like shrooms or polyps to start dividing on a new plug, though I'm pretty sure they will anchor just fine.
Encrusting corals, like star polyps would be a good test animal I'm thinking, but again, it usually takes mine about 3 or 4 weeks to start showing visible signs of attachment and new growth.
I have both shrooms and stars that I would be willing to use to test this, if you'd like. I could do the frags tomorrow, and then it will be a waiting game...
andbigdaddy2
New member
Ok but why wait 10 days then did it take that long to dry?
How long would it take to cure? I got the impression it only takes 10 days. Will it take just as long as Portland?
Insane Reefer
New member
I'm not sure - it is sort of hard to see, but it looks like the bag says "Polymer Fortified". If this is the case, that would likely put it in the "fast-set" category, and fast-sets usually are pH stable when they have finished curing - the bag should give a cure time on it (when it has finished hydration (max strength achieved) - I think a lot of fast sets say something like 3 days - not sure on grouts though). If that is the case, the rock was likely cured before putting it in the tank - much like Mr Wilson's fast set cement covered plumbing, and in that event, wouldn't have needed much, if any, in the way of kuring.
Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.
Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.
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