Well, I am not sure that I have ever heard of a company claiming that they denitrify. It could be the only filter you need depending on the type of set-up. If ammonia/nitrite are the primary nitrogen species that build up in a set-up than the wet-dry filter is probably the best filter out there. Many aquatic organisms are quite tolerant of abnormally high levels of nitrate (and many other tanks get large enough water changes where nitrate build up isn't a concern). In a tank with alot of autotrophs and alot of surface area for nitrification to occur this isn't our concern (reef tanks). It doesn't mean that someone with a reef tank can't have success with a wet-dry filter. However it is likely that they are having sucess in spite of the wet dry filter rather than because of it.
The wet-dry Filter debate, why?
- Thread starter mmfish
- Start date
luther1200
Premium Member
Bio-Media Sumps
"Although these were the "traditional" wet/dry filters, sumps that use bio-balls are no longer prevalent in the saltwater and reef hobbies, having lost popularity in favor of live rock setups and live rock/algal combinations which simply outperform them, are more natural and require less maintenance. But in a freshwater system, where these methods are not possible, this style of wet/dry sump is still viable.
Bio-balls or similar high surface area, high flow media have to be well-maintained to avoid dangerous nitrate buildup. But if bio-balls are cleaned regularly (always in batches â€"œ never all at once) in clean, conditioned water, hobbyists can still have success in these setups."
That is a quote from a site selling wet/dry filters. And they claim all you have to do is keep the bio-balls clean and you will not get Nitrates. And that was just a 2 second google search.
It came from this site
http://www.aquariumguys.com/about-wet-dry-filters.html
"Although these were the "traditional" wet/dry filters, sumps that use bio-balls are no longer prevalent in the saltwater and reef hobbies, having lost popularity in favor of live rock setups and live rock/algal combinations which simply outperform them, are more natural and require less maintenance. But in a freshwater system, where these methods are not possible, this style of wet/dry sump is still viable.
Bio-balls or similar high surface area, high flow media have to be well-maintained to avoid dangerous nitrate buildup. But if bio-balls are cleaned regularly (always in batches â€"œ never all at once) in clean, conditioned water, hobbyists can still have success in these setups."
That is a quote from a site selling wet/dry filters. And they claim all you have to do is keep the bio-balls clean and you will not get Nitrates. And that was just a 2 second google search.
It came from this site
http://www.aquariumguys.com/about-wet-dry-filters.html
luther1200
Premium Member
No you would be better off putting the LR in the sump.
Some of the nicest tanks I have seen use the bio-ball method of filtration. Filter socks and ample skimming are used with the trickle filter along with shallow sandbeds. This combo removes the pollutants quickly before they can break down and doesn't allow them build up.
Bio-balls get a bad rap IMHO.... too many beautiful tanks posted on RC over the last 10 years using 'balls.
Bio-balls get a bad rap IMHO.... too many beautiful tanks posted on RC over the last 10 years using 'balls.
pwoller
New member
Because Red Sea like to sell plug and plays, that arent quite that. I questioned them on why they have t5's with 1 reflector instead of individual reflectors, and there answer was that their "engineers", found them to not be neccessary. I bought the original RSM and modded it to perfection along with alot of others, but they didn't seem to add these changes to any of their new tanks. But in their labs they can grow any kind of coral, yeah right!
What ever you do dont buy an under gravel filter!!!
Marinworld
New member
luther1200
May I ask just how many marine systems you have setup and run. Have you had actual experience installing various combinations, wet/dry's, bioballs, rufugiums, lr/sumps, chaeto/no chaeto, etc., etc.
If you have, that's great. If you haven't, then I think you should realize that there are many ways to run a marine system. They can all be successful as well, given the proper maintenance; water changes, proper feeding levels, etc., etc.
Having over 50 years hands-on experience installing marine systems on a commercial basis, I can tell you that Wet-Dry filters can run a reef tank just as well as the other forms. Most problems I find can be traced back to the maintenance routine by the "keeper of the reef". And as for the manufacturers making new devices, what better way to keep the hobbyist investing in new alternatives.
There is nothing wrong with stating how YOU run YOUR system, however, I disagree when someone says "this is no good or won't work", unless you can prove it through a very carefully controlled experiment.
Example:
My brother has a 120 gallon aquarium, running an UG filter. Nothing else. This system has a mated pair of Chaetodon unimaculatus that are more than 7 years old, and lay eggs quite frequently.
As I said, there are many ways to do things.
Good Luck
Don
May I ask just how many marine systems you have setup and run. Have you had actual experience installing various combinations, wet/dry's, bioballs, rufugiums, lr/sumps, chaeto/no chaeto, etc., etc.
If you have, that's great. If you haven't, then I think you should realize that there are many ways to run a marine system. They can all be successful as well, given the proper maintenance; water changes, proper feeding levels, etc., etc.
Having over 50 years hands-on experience installing marine systems on a commercial basis, I can tell you that Wet-Dry filters can run a reef tank just as well as the other forms. Most problems I find can be traced back to the maintenance routine by the "keeper of the reef". And as for the manufacturers making new devices, what better way to keep the hobbyist investing in new alternatives.
There is nothing wrong with stating how YOU run YOUR system, however, I disagree when someone says "this is no good or won't work", unless you can prove it through a very carefully controlled experiment.
Example:
My brother has a 120 gallon aquarium, running an UG filter. Nothing else. This system has a mated pair of Chaetodon unimaculatus that are more than 7 years old, and lay eggs quite frequently.
As I said, there are many ways to do things.
Good Luck
Don
luther1200
Premium Member
I have set up about 4 systems my nano which had the ceramic noodles in the back. But I could never get my NO3 levels down undr 10, then I removed the noodles and just added some more LR and they fell in a few weeks. And my 65 which I have run with a variety a different combo's- wet/dry with bio balls, wet/dry with LR, just a sump and skimmer. I currently have a fuge with cheato and caulerpa. When I had the wet/dry hooked up my NO3 would never get under 20. I removed the LR pieces at that point and went with just a sump and they went down to about 10. Then I added macro algae and they fell to 0. And I have found that a wet/dry will do more harm than good on a reef tank, for most people. About the same time I set up my 65 I helped my friend set up his 75. And wet/dry's where all the rage at the time so that's what he got. And had the same problems I had. So I suggested he toss the wet/dry and just run a sump and he did. His NO3 went down to almost nothing just by doing that. I may not have the most expierience in the hobby, and I never claimed to. And I never said they won't work at all, I just said they tend to "create" higher levels of NO3, because they lack the low O2 zones needed for aenerobic bacteris to colonize. Which are the bacteria that take the next step in the nitrogen cycle after the NO3 is "created".
Skeptic_07
New member
Re: The wet-dry Filter debate, why?
... reefkeepers are keeping reef tanks, not FO tanks. Seems like 'marine tank' and 'reef tank' are being used interchangeably in this thread. Not all marine tanks are reef tanks. Just wanted to throw that out there.
... reefkeepers are keeping reef tanks, not FO tanks. Seems like 'marine tank' and 'reef tank' are being used interchangeably in this thread. Not all marine tanks are reef tanks. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Marinworld
New member
Skeptic_07,luther 1200,
Reef tank, Marine Tank, I'm not interchanging anything. I'm talking strictly about the comment of high nitrate levels in tanks. Period. The fact is, I have installed all sorts of systems, using all sorts of equipment, and I don't see high nitrate levels with Wet-Drys/bioballs. All the systems I install utilize prefilters. These prefilters keep the "junk" out of the bio chamber. The bioballs are not allowed to accumulate debris. The prefilters do not utilize reusable material. They are not cleaned and reused. When dirt gathers it is removed and thrown out, and replaced with new material. I don't use sponges, or prefilter bags. This material cannot be thoroughly cleaned, unless you were to use bleach. Merely scrubbing and washing doesn't get them clean. If the proper maintenance, along with proper feeding is done, there is no reason for high nitrate levels. I see no reason to accept high nitrate levels in any type of system. FO, FWLR, etc., etc.
My experience on this comes from installing and running marine tanks on a commercial basis for 50+ years.
I mention this not as a point of arrogance, but as a fact which has given me the chance to draw some reasonable data. Luther 1200, I commend you for your observance in the systems that you have been involved with to date. This type of attention to details makes the difference between success and failure. Keep that attitude.
Regards,
Don
Reef tank, Marine Tank, I'm not interchanging anything. I'm talking strictly about the comment of high nitrate levels in tanks. Period. The fact is, I have installed all sorts of systems, using all sorts of equipment, and I don't see high nitrate levels with Wet-Drys/bioballs. All the systems I install utilize prefilters. These prefilters keep the "junk" out of the bio chamber. The bioballs are not allowed to accumulate debris. The prefilters do not utilize reusable material. They are not cleaned and reused. When dirt gathers it is removed and thrown out, and replaced with new material. I don't use sponges, or prefilter bags. This material cannot be thoroughly cleaned, unless you were to use bleach. Merely scrubbing and washing doesn't get them clean. If the proper maintenance, along with proper feeding is done, there is no reason for high nitrate levels. I see no reason to accept high nitrate levels in any type of system. FO, FWLR, etc., etc.
My experience on this comes from installing and running marine tanks on a commercial basis for 50+ years.
I mention this not as a point of arrogance, but as a fact which has given me the chance to draw some reasonable data. Luther 1200, I commend you for your observance in the systems that you have been involved with to date. This type of attention to details makes the difference between success and failure. Keep that attitude.
Regards,
Don
One Dumm Hikk
In Memoriam
I had a 120G tank that was a penninsula/room divider tank. The overflow box was in the short side of the tank instead of the long side. It was designed to sit out into a room, viewable from three sides. I wanted an arch in the tank. It was also to be a reef tank, predominantly Zooanthids (I am a zooanthid junky) along with clams, a few SPS that were given to me, and fish.
If I had built an arch out of LR, it would have been leaning on the overflow box and that worried me about the potential of breaking it. The other issue was that if I glued together an arch that fit in a 24x48 tank, and ever had to get it out, I would need a crane.
After brainstorming on it, the solution I came up with was to use styrofoam or plastic rocks in the display for weight purposes. Light. That left me having to put all of the filtration in the stand. Using LR, I would have had to figure out where to put ~60-120 pounds of live rock in a sump that could not be larger than 22x44 and fit in the stand. And then had to get a skimmer, calcium reactor and a PO4 reactor under there.
What I decided on was to use bioballs to convert ammonia to nitrate. You won't find a better medium for doing that. The drawback to bioballs is that they lack the oxygen poor/free zone to convert nitrate to free nitrogen. The solution was pulsing Xenia farm to convert the nitrates to free nitrogen. When the xenia started outgrowing the sump, I could prune them and trade them in for credit. Beat the idea of pruning macroalgae and trashing it. The plan was also for a clam farm for more NO3 but mainly PO4 issues.
I no longer have that tank (nasty split up with the ex) so I never did get it setup. I never did find anybody with know-how that told me it was a bad idea or that it wouldn't work. I have a few small tanks now (nothing larger than a 20 breeder). But when I get settled back down, I want a larger tank with an arch in it and bioballs/xenia is going to be my first approach to a solution to filtration on it.
Bioballs/wet-dry are like any other form of filtration. They have there drawbacks (any system does). The key is to know the drawbacks, know the limitations, and come up with solutions to handle those drawbacks. And then you can run bioballs on a reef tank and not have NO3/PO4 issues in the tank.
If I had built an arch out of LR, it would have been leaning on the overflow box and that worried me about the potential of breaking it. The other issue was that if I glued together an arch that fit in a 24x48 tank, and ever had to get it out, I would need a crane.
After brainstorming on it, the solution I came up with was to use styrofoam or plastic rocks in the display for weight purposes. Light. That left me having to put all of the filtration in the stand. Using LR, I would have had to figure out where to put ~60-120 pounds of live rock in a sump that could not be larger than 22x44 and fit in the stand. And then had to get a skimmer, calcium reactor and a PO4 reactor under there.
What I decided on was to use bioballs to convert ammonia to nitrate. You won't find a better medium for doing that. The drawback to bioballs is that they lack the oxygen poor/free zone to convert nitrate to free nitrogen. The solution was pulsing Xenia farm to convert the nitrates to free nitrogen. When the xenia started outgrowing the sump, I could prune them and trade them in for credit. Beat the idea of pruning macroalgae and trashing it. The plan was also for a clam farm for more NO3 but mainly PO4 issues.
I no longer have that tank (nasty split up with the ex) so I never did get it setup. I never did find anybody with know-how that told me it was a bad idea or that it wouldn't work. I have a few small tanks now (nothing larger than a 20 breeder). But when I get settled back down, I want a larger tank with an arch in it and bioballs/xenia is going to be my first approach to a solution to filtration on it.
Bioballs/wet-dry are like any other form of filtration. They have there drawbacks (any system does). The key is to know the drawbacks, know the limitations, and come up with solutions to handle those drawbacks. And then you can run bioballs on a reef tank and not have NO3/PO4 issues in the tank.
