The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[MUCHO REEF]

Ummm.. Wouldn't anything truly "rare" by included on CITES.org? :bigeyes::idea:

Well, you know that, I know that and many others do as well. However, when someone wants to sell something quick and for a ridiculous about of money to someone who is a newb or misinformed, well, they call it rare which is purely subjective. It's usually preceded by a name :deadhorse1:

Mucho

 

[joshky]

I don't think they go around looking at individual color patterns of Zoanthid sp. and says "Hey, this colony is only collected in this spot and we've never seen a pattern like it before so we're going to classify it as being endangered.". Perhaps I'm misspeaking, just don't think they care about that like we do.

I'm not trying to say any one polyp is rare, but I'm just saying that if there were a zoa/paly pattern/coloration that was truly rarely collected, I don't think it would be on the radar for being banned for collection due to the coloration, but only if the species itself were endangered.

Feel free to correct me, I love learning new stuff.

 

[EDJFA]

I didn't read this whole thread, so I'm going to throw this out there. Apologies if it's already been discussed.

Our local reef club, St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists (SLASH), has a program for it's members called the Coral Donation Program. There are some rules to the program, but the basics are that everyone who becomes a paid member gets CDP points. Those points are used to "adopt" corals that have been donated by the club members. In return, they are required to donate back a certain number of corals.

From that point it becomes a bartering system. Every coral donation you make earns you a point. Unless it's a new coral to the program which earns you three points, I think. You can then use those points to get corals from other members when they donate them to the program. It's a trading system like others have mentioned, but it's tracked extensively through the club.

The list of corals in the program are extensive. Lots of SPS, zoas, and softies. It's pretty rare for someone to post on our RC page that they're looking for a certain coral and that they've got CDP points and NOT get the coral they're looking for.

What makes the program work is that the members are invested in the program. Sure, we still buy corals from the LFS, but once you have corals to frag and donate, that become more of an impulse buy or simply a choice to support your favorite LFS.

Oh, and the person who donates the most corals to the program annually is crowned Reefer of the Year and wins a prize package at our annual Frag Swap event. Usually it's $$ at a LFS and some other stuff.

As my tank is still a work in progress, I haven't been a very active participant in the program. But, when I look at purchasing a new coral, one of the things I look for is whether or not it's on the list of already donated corals. If I'm going to spend money on a coral, having an awareness of what is or isn't in the program already makes me feel a little better about spending the money, knowing that purchase might be also buying me other corals down the road.

If all of the reef clubs across the country adopted a program like that, I can't help but think it would drive prices down across the board.

 

[joshky]

I didn't read this whole thread, so I'm going to throw this out there. Apologies if it's already been discussed.

Our local reef club, St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists (SLASH), has a program for it's members called the Coral Donation Program. There are some rules to the program, but the basics are that everyone who becomes a paid member gets CDP points. Those points are used to "adopt" corals that have been donated by the club members. In return, they are required to donate back a certain number of corals.

From that point it becomes a bartering system. Every coral donation you make earns you a point. Unless it's a new coral to the program which earns you three points, I think. You can then use those points to get corals from other members when they donate them to the program. It's a trading system like others have mentioned, but it's tracked extensively through the club.

The list of corals in the program are extensive. Lots of SPS, zoas, and softies. It's pretty rare for someone to post on our RC page that they're looking for a certain coral and that they've got CDP points and NOT get the coral they're looking for.

What makes the program work is that the members are invested in the program. Sure, we still buy corals from the LFS, but once you have corals to frag and donate, that become more of an impulse buy or simply a choice to support your favorite LFS.

Oh, and the person who donates the most corals to the program annually is crowned Reefer of the Year and wins a prize package at our annual Frag Swap event. Usually it's $$ at a LFS and some other stuff.

As my tank is still a work in progress, I haven't been a very active participant in the program. But, when I look at purchasing a new coral, one of the things I look for is whether or not it's on the list of already donated corals. If I'm going to spend money on a coral, having an awareness of what is or isn't in the program already makes me feel a little better about spending the money, knowing that purchase might be also buying me other corals down the road.

If all of the reef clubs across the country adopted a program like that, I can't help but think it would drive prices down across the board.

This is really a neat idea and I'm going to bring it up with my local club and see if we can get something like this going. Where do your donated corals go, I'm assuming someone took on the task of running a large frag tank to house them? More information would be great on how you all do things if you don't mind sharing.

 

[sde1500]

I didn't read this whole thread, so I'm going to throw this out there. Apologies if it's already been discussed.



Our local reef club, St. Louis Area Saltwater Hobbyists (SLASH), has a program for it's members called the Coral Donation Program. There are some rules to the program, but the basics are that everyone who becomes a paid member gets CDP points. Those points are used to "adopt" corals that have been donated by the club members. In return, they are required to donate back a certain number of corals.



From that point it becomes a bartering system. Every coral donation you make earns you a point. Unless it's a new coral to the program which earns you three points, I think. You can then use those points to get corals from other members when they donate them to the program. It's a trading system like others have mentioned, but it's tracked extensively through the club.



The list of corals in the program are extensive. Lots of SPS, zoas, and softies. It's pretty rare for someone to post on our RC page that they're looking for a certain coral and that they've got CDP points and NOT get the coral they're looking for.



What makes the program work is that the members are invested in the program. Sure, we still buy corals from the LFS, but once you have corals to frag and donate, that become more of an impulse buy or simply a choice to support your favorite LFS.



Oh, and the person who donates the most corals to the program annually is crowned Reefer of the Year and wins a prize package at our annual Frag Swap event. Usually it's $$ at a LFS and some other stuff.



As my tank is still a work in progress, I haven't been a very active participant in the program. But, when I look at purchasing a new coral, one of the things I look for is whether or not it's on the list of already donated corals. If I'm going to spend money on a coral, having an awareness of what is or isn't in the program already makes me feel a little better about spending the money, knowing that purchase might be also buying me other corals down the road.



If all of the reef clubs across the country adopted a program like that, I can't help but think it would drive prices down across the board.

That is an awesome idea.

 

[SoloGarth]

Got someone on the local FB page doing this now. Everything is "Nitro". Quit it with the branding. Don't like where the hobby is going. Not one bit. Ok sad rant over.

 

[EDJFA]

There isn't a single tank that houses our CDP donated corals. It's more of a "Hey, I'm coming to the next Pizza Night and I'm bringing these three frags that I'm donating to the program. Let me know if you want them."

This link should be helpful if any of your clubs want to copy the model:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2469953

I think programs like this could become vitally important to our hobby if the government continues to regulate the collection and sale of corals.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

This is really a neat idea and I'm going to bring it up with my local club and see if we can get something like this going. Where do your donated corals go, I'm assuming someone took on the task of running a large frag tank to house them? More information would be great on how you all do things if you don't mind sharing.

I think it is an awesome idea. Something similar to that was floated around years ago but never caught on. I really wish this model could be adopted/implemented everywhere and I hope it catches fire quick. I'm gonna share this with several reefers with crossed fingers.

I use to do a weekly online Trivia Contest Giveaways. The reefer who correctly answered 3 zoanthid related questions would receive 3 really nice frags or small colonies of overgrowth from my tank. It went over very well 3 or 4 times as I recall. I stopped when one of the reefers I gave zoas and palys to decided to name them and sold them the following week for a ton of money. I hope the awesome CDP idea would never cause some to do the same for gain.....or should I say greed.

Great info EDJFA and thanks for sharing that.

Mooch

 

[Reef Frog]

I've been watching as certain corals like "ultra" scolys and unusual fungias (plates) have gone up in price like crazy over the last few years. Candy Apple scolys I bought a few years ago for $99 are now being priced at $250-$300. Wow, that's inflation huh?

I am also seeing them languish in LFS store tanks for very long times. They aren't selling. Some begin to decline, some have been put in their stores' display tanks. And they're not ordering more as these are rational business people.

So new orders from retailers will decrease & the wholesales will take notice. Then they'll discount stock on hand to the highest bidder. When it comes time to buy new stocks of these corals, the wholesaler will demand lower prices from the collectors or refuse to buy that merchandise altogether if he thinks it won't sell at a price that delivers a profit. So at this point somebody is going to supply the merchandise for less or exit the business and the future retail prices will reflect this new reality. It's like a self adjusting ecosystem at work.

I'm a believer in supply/demand economics. Prices are high because of constricted demand, new or higher consumer demand, or both. It would be extremely rare if something like this is due to a cabal of greedy industry actors at work in underhanded ways. Even when rare price fixing conspiracies exist, the actors can rarely hold their discipline for long and the whole scheme comes tumbling down.

So even if I don't like the price rises, it's almost always fair and I'll do no whining. If I can't afford it or justify it then I'll pass. It's like voting with your dollars.

Let's be honest here. Let's say you're a coin collector or dealer. You have a nice big stock of Morgan silver dollars that sell at a moderate pace for $100 each. A few years pass and the market suddenly jumps to $300 each at higher sales volumes. Are you going to keep selling your stock for $100 each, just because you acquired them at a lower price, out of a feeling of guilt or mercy for all the poor folks who would like one but now can't afford one or who are shell shocked at the inflation. No of course not - you'll sell it for what you can get for it. Conversely, if market prices crash & you need to unload some of these coins at a loss to deal with an emergency, you'll do it if you have to. The market place will show you no mercy. The sword cuts both ways. It's capitalism, get used to it!:spin3:

 

[SIR PATRICK]

The market place will show you no mercy. The sword cuts both ways. It's capitalism, get used to it!:spin3:

Call it Capitalism if you wish, you wouldnt be wrong.

Many prefer to call it greed and commercialism, and are not wrong either.

But you have to call them all 3 if you want to right both times.

 

[The_Reef_Keeper]

Does anyone Know any good websites that have good priced corals.

p.s I am not the kind of person who pays 20 bucks for single zoa polyp.

 

[joshky]

Does anyone Know any good websites that have good priced corals.

p.s I am not the kind of person who pays 20 bucks for single zoa polyp.

Well, I don't know if these prices are in line with what the old timers remember, keep in mind general inflation..... But http://www.pacificeastaquaculture.com/ gets in "Pieces of the Reef" ever so often that are full of different zoanthid and palythoas, large clove polyps, mushrooms, and even some other coral at times. Their supply right now isn't the best and some of them I would consider to be over priced, however there are times that you can get some seriously good deals if you compare what you're getting to the "named variety".

They also get in some amazing clams and from what I've heard, healthy too. This is a website I wish updated more often because you can find some gems listed at reasonable prices.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Does anyone Know any good websites that have good priced corals.

p.s I am not the kind of person who pays 20 bucks for single zoa polyp.

Reefs2go has some great prices. 15 polyps for $ 20.00 is exactly what I have always bought and sold polyps for as well as those in my crew. Often we just trade or give a way the overgrowth.

Too many reefers today try to keep up with the Joneses when it comes to zoanthids and palythoas. Buying every frag on the market does nothing more then to create curio cabinet style frag tanks. Don't focus on rarity or names or the person's name attached to it. Focus on proper lighting to illuminate your polyps so they'll fluores as brightly as the pimped polyps.

Glade to see someone publically refusing to be gouged for $20 for a single polyp which could die overnight.

Good luck my friend.

MUCHO

 

[joshky]

Before you consider purchasing anything with reefs2go, you should read their reviews all over the web. I appreciate your steadfast attitude towards coral pricing Mucho but I would never recommend people to a vendor like this. Even if they get your order right and you're happy, they have ripped hundreds of other consumers off and I just don't see how anyone could knowingly support a business that has a customer support model like they do (absolutely zero).

 

[Protoavis]

Got someone on the local FB page doing this now. Everything is "Nitro". Quit it with the branding. Don't like where the hobby is going. Not one bit. Ok sad rant over.

Agreed with the branding thing, it's cringe. It'd be one thing if people had bred something new or it were a mutation that is aquarium based (like a branch of arco did a sport that was completely different for whatever reason or someones blue clove polyps started turning up red or something), but it's not. It's all (or at least most of the time) naturally occurring forms for whatever species direct from the ocean.

My coral stance is largely "if it doesn't have a scientific name* I'm not interested"

*that matches a google search

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Before you consider purchasing anything with reefs2go, you should read their reviews all over the web. I appreciate your steadfast attitude towards coral pricing Mucho but I would never recommend people to a vendor like this. Even if they get your order right and you're happy, they have ripped hundreds of other consumers off and I just don't see how anyone could knowingly support a business that has a customer support model like they do (absolutely zero).

Wow....I stand totally corrected. I did a quick search and didn't check them out and believe me I always do. Thank you sir for the correction.

I don't buy corals online anymore so if anyone can help direct this reefer to a reputable source I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

I would highly consider local reefers and local clubs. Just put the word out and see what flys.

Thanks again mate

 

[PIPSTER]

I'm being facetious here, but the blame is squarely on people like Jourdy! :wildone:
Everyone want's a tank stocked to the gills with color, me included, but he lives in a country where they are giving those away, while I can't find a single pink BamBam here, or hardly any of the other coral he has.

It's not that they're rare, it's that they are not available for sale. :eek1:

I believe in free market principles, too, and the alternative is very, very ugly. :uzi::blown::hammer:

Have you seen a pic of JFox's homewrecker? There's a reason people are willing to drop $750 for a frag of it.

I have so far been able window shop and wait to find good deals, but there's a lot of coral I cannot find for sale at all that I want, maybe I should just start posting in the WTB section. So, if I find what I want, I'll be willing to pay a little more than I would think it's worth, because I won't find it anywhere else.

But I've seen gold torches anywhere from $45 to $200 for the same type of head, bright green beautiful torches for $30 sitting next to a $200 yellow hammer, and $40 rainbow acans next to $200 rainbow acans at the same place that didn't look very different from each other.

It's about being a smart buyer and not buying the first thing you see, but shop around first for awhile.

I wish I had more lfs and local clubs to find goodies at, but I'm stuck in a land-locked, reefer sparse area, so I'm stuck with online deals. :mad2:

 

[joshky]

I just wanted to touch back on the Pieces of the Reef from earlier, here are some good examples of what they stock. I don't feel like their current inventory is a fair representation as there are much better deals to be had.

That being said I realize these deals aren't nearly as good as what Mucho offers local reefers, and may seem a bit on the pricey side... But they are much better than if you buy frags separately from vendors such as ASD, CC, WWC etc.. I focus more on SPS now, but I wish I had known about these earlier because they are a lot better value than what I used to buy.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I'm being facetious here, but the blame is squarely on people like Jourdy! :wildone:
Everyone want's a tank stocked to the gills with color, me included, but he lives in a country where they are giving those away, while I can't find a single pink BamBam here, or hardly any of the other coral he has.

It's not that they're rare, it's that they are not available for sale. :eek1:

You should share what region you live in sir.

I believe in free market principles, too, and the alternative is very, very ugly. :uzi::blown::hammer:

Have you seen a pic of JFox's homewrecker? There's a reason people are willing to drop $750 for a frag of it.

No I haven't. Not to sound cocky, but I don't bother to look or search on zoa pics anymore. All I see are overly blue saturated photoshopped pictures of 1 to 3 polyp frags which doesn't amuse me at all. When I see a name or a person's name near a coral, I click next even quicker. I wouldn't pay that much for a frag if Moses found it when he parted the Red Sea. Someone paid $2,425 for 2 polyps, and I'm told they both died. We're talking about zoanthids !!!!!!

I have so far been able window shop and wait to find good deals, but there's a lot of coral I cannot find for sale at all that I want, maybe I should just start posting in the WTB section. So, if I find what I want, I'll be willing to pay a little more than I would think it's worth, because I won't find it anywhere else.

I equate coral hunting with house hunting. You should never become emotionally attached until you own it. Everyone has their favorite, mine is a blue paly with polyps the size of a dime and they are they most vivid blue with corkscrew skirts that you have ever seen. I owned hundreds of them and never seen them anywhere. In 2009 I was offered $800 for a frag. I refused to sell them or give him a frag. Why? Because I knew all he wanted to do was sell them for a profit. If he hadn't offered the money....I would have given him a frag for a root beer. I know these skyhigh prices will never end until everyone collectively says no.. Just remember, if you are willing to pay more just to own it, there's no guranteed it will be alive in the morning......and your money is gone. Don't become emotionally attached my friend.

I agree, post in WTB and hope for the best.

But I've seen gold torches anywhere from $45 to $200 for the same type of head, bright green beautiful torches for $30 sitting next to a $200 yellow hammer, and $40 rainbow acans next to $200 rainbow acans at the same place that didn't look very different from each other.

It's about being a smart buyer and not buying the first thing you see, but shop around first for awhile.

Good advice brother.

I wish I had more lfs and local clubs to find goodies at, but I'm stuck in a land-locked, reefer sparse area, so I'm stuck with online deals. :mad2:

Again, where do you live? You might be surprised who steps up to help you mate.

Mooch

 

[dataz722]

I have been out of the loop for about 10 years now and am looking at starting up a reef again. I was shocked when I saw how much my LFS wanted for some tiny frags. I swore they weren't nearly that expensive before, and now I guess I have confirmation that I am not going crazy.