Tweaked
FUP&A Member
My buddy offered him the 1k cash, and asked if he would toss in a free-be.. Nope he says. :lmao:
The whole coral pricing has become a joke
- Thread starter tang named junkyard
- Start date
My buddy offered him the 1k cash, and asked if he would toss in a free-be.. Nope he says. :lmao:
SNAKEMANVET
PREMIUM MEMBER
That's bad.lol
I would have shared with that poor chap that when you pay those gouger prices you are forcing so many new reefers out of the hobby. The hobby is not for the few, it's for everyone. I've heard the excuse of reefers just being mad that they don't have the money or can't afford these corals. Trust me, that's not true by a stretch. I would have told him that many of these sellers in the hobby today have front men who hype their corals and then purchase said corals. I don't know this seller at that swap, but I'd still warn him. Some are even schillers who work on commission. I would have told him that anyone who says they are the only ones who have a particular coral, is telling you a flat out lie. Just think for a second, everyone with said coral might not be on RC, or at a swap, or has a digital camera, or has internet access, or tells anyone he or she has it, any LFS could have it and not be affiliated with anyone we know etc.
I would have told him to read these threads in their entirety.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316723
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php
You see the true purpose is to create hype, excitement, that's how you set the trap. When someone shows interest, you set the hook deep in their jaw of sometime innocences and other times gullibility. Still there are others who have to feel they are the first, the only one who has it. :lolspin: Others like myself simply are not amused..
I would share post like this reefer in this thread.
Vertigo01's post #133
"As I am a rather new beginner to the reefing community, I agree that people are asking astronomical prices for what amounts to little more than a 1" colored twig or some colored button with eyelashes.
Fleabay is not the only place where such price gouging is taking place, facebook is another."
I'd tell him to click on this link and view Geoxman's tank since most new reefers don't know these types of tanks even exist as all they have been exposed to are micro frags. I want him to see what happens when you just let them grow without chopping off every new polyp that is born.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1274521
Some, ( I said some ) have seen a true reef tank and are now blinded by greed and only live to frag and sell. Still many others have remained true to the hobby and would never price gouge for monetary gain and humor.
There are two types to watch out for as Organism states in his link below.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316723
1. Those who are against these sky high prices and know how common they are and their true value.
2. Those that are all for greed and gouging. Even if they themselves would never pay such sky high prices, they will support, defend, hype and praise those who do. They support the Supply and Demand myth which has been debunked over and over again and is always the reason, ( read the Reef Trendy link enclosed ), or should I say the excuse. Corals which have been readily available and seen everywhere in the hobby for over 20 years now, are still being marketed and touted as rare. They have even stated that supply is limited, yet that supply can be seen everywhere, again, to justify gouging your pockets. :hammer:
I would have concluded by saying to him, just take an hour and read these threads. They will give you the revelation which you seek. And if you still choose to pay $1,000 for a twig, at least you were educated on the game known as PIMPIN. After all, I'm sure you've heard of the two polyps which sold for $ 2,500.................................and they both DIED.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1941053
http://166.78.194.236/forums/showthread.php?t=1304962
I can honestly say, that in 25 years, of all the reefers I have met around the country, of all the reefing conferences I have attended, of all the reefers I have sold and given frags to, of all the guys with sterling reputations and some of the most stunning reef tanks ever seen, none of them, not one, would ever pay anyone a $1,000 for anything going into a reef tank.
This is just some of what I would have share with him and I hope the newbs have continued to follow this thread and all of the links provided. But it all starts with reading the first post in this thread.
MUCHO REEF
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Acronic
The Fifth Master
I'm confused.
"frags are too expensive!" .... "I can get that exact coral for pennies."...
sooo which is it? Are frags too expensive or are they reasonably priced?
What exactly is the end game here?
Throwing shade at vendors calling them greedy over coral prices is hypocrisy. Wanting more for less is a form of greed is it not?
There is no way that expensive corals are driving new hobbyists out for the same reasons that $150 bottles of scotch aren't keeping alcoholics on the band wagon ect.
Local fish stores are not getting rich quick off corals. Maintenance maybe. I cant say I have ever heard of any local fish store going public. These people are hard workers just like anyone else who gets off their butts in the morning and puts food on the table. Likely at a greater risk than the average joe. Corals are all they got on the store front now. People walk in there, ask for advise on equipment, walk out and buy it on amazon! Three cheers for freedom of consumerism. I'm really glad I got to see it in action before I pulled the trigger online though.
The whole back in my day, frankfurts only cost a nickle is hilarious. Corals are not in some quasi pseudo anti inflation black hole... Nothing costs what it did 12 years ago. Likely the only monetary constant through time is salary haha. Which is likely why we see a luxury hobby pet cost being an over extension.
Sure, corals in Viet are cheap from the source... now take that $3 coral. bag it, box it, ship it, fly it, get the cites, pay the customs, pay the brokerage, pay the gas, pay the car, pay the insurance, pay the tax, pay the rent, pay the hydro, pay the employees and pay yourself with it.. You end up with a $30 coral. but wait, thats just the wholesaler. Now the LFS; Pay the $30, pay the air freight, pay the brokerage, pay the gas, pay the car, pay the rent blah blah blah blah blah. Now you have a $60 coral. Oh what? that coral didnt make it? ah bummer.... But screw them right?
But no, screw us. Because without them our new hobbyists have no first contact which means we have no new people to trade frags with or grow this hobby as a community.
So hey, lets stop shopping at the LFS. They go out of business... Dang there's no shops near by that I can drive to anymore.. well ill just go online and see whats up... whats this cornbred corals? wow his prices are twice as much as they were before we had the LFS shut down... shucks
There are tonnes of corals to be had for great prices. Likely 80% is reasonable. The other 20% is buyer beware but hey, freedom of consumerism right?
Now this post is not directed at any one person but at the collective thought. Please take no offence because I mean absolutely none whatsoever. You guys are not wrong. Some of these corals are priced through the roof but it isnt because they are xenia thats for sure.
:love1: Happy reefing everybody :fish1:
"frags are too expensive!" .... "I can get that exact coral for pennies."...
sooo which is it? Are frags too expensive or are they reasonably priced?
What exactly is the end game here?
Throwing shade at vendors calling them greedy over coral prices is hypocrisy. Wanting more for less is a form of greed is it not?
There is no way that expensive corals are driving new hobbyists out for the same reasons that $150 bottles of scotch aren't keeping alcoholics on the band wagon ect.
Local fish stores are not getting rich quick off corals. Maintenance maybe. I cant say I have ever heard of any local fish store going public. These people are hard workers just like anyone else who gets off their butts in the morning and puts food on the table. Likely at a greater risk than the average joe. Corals are all they got on the store front now. People walk in there, ask for advise on equipment, walk out and buy it on amazon! Three cheers for freedom of consumerism. I'm really glad I got to see it in action before I pulled the trigger online though.
The whole back in my day, frankfurts only cost a nickle is hilarious. Corals are not in some quasi pseudo anti inflation black hole... Nothing costs what it did 12 years ago. Likely the only monetary constant through time is salary haha. Which is likely why we see a luxury hobby pet cost being an over extension.
Sure, corals in Viet are cheap from the source... now take that $3 coral. bag it, box it, ship it, fly it, get the cites, pay the customs, pay the brokerage, pay the gas, pay the car, pay the insurance, pay the tax, pay the rent, pay the hydro, pay the employees and pay yourself with it.. You end up with a $30 coral. but wait, thats just the wholesaler. Now the LFS; Pay the $30, pay the air freight, pay the brokerage, pay the gas, pay the car, pay the rent blah blah blah blah blah. Now you have a $60 coral. Oh what? that coral didnt make it? ah bummer.... But screw them right?
But no, screw us. Because without them our new hobbyists have no first contact which means we have no new people to trade frags with or grow this hobby as a community.
So hey, lets stop shopping at the LFS. They go out of business... Dang there's no shops near by that I can drive to anymore.. well ill just go online and see whats up... whats this cornbred corals? wow his prices are twice as much as they were before we had the LFS shut down... shucks
There are tonnes of corals to be had for great prices. Likely 80% is reasonable. The other 20% is buyer beware but hey, freedom of consumerism right?
Now this post is not directed at any one person but at the collective thought. Please take no offence because I mean absolutely none whatsoever. You guys are not wrong. Some of these corals are priced through the roof but it isnt because they are xenia thats for sure.
:love1: Happy reefing everybody :fish1:
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ReefInterest
Member
Wow, best... post... ever! :thumbsup:
p.s. I'm eyeing this for my tank:
http://saltcritters.com/zoanthid-coral-a2/
Less than a buck a polyp.
p.s. I'm eyeing this for my tank:
http://saltcritters.com/zoanthid-coral-a2/
Less than a buck a polyp.
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I think many here have made great points of clarity on this topic. In a nut shell, if you look, hunt, search high and low, there's a good chance you might find the same coral much cheater. I said a CHANCE. These prices didn't begin at the LFS. It began with everyday reefers and migrated up the chain. So what exactly is the beef of so many who posted in this thread? Look at all the testimonials above in post # 331 . You can even read from the first post forward. A 4" x 4" rock covered with any mushroom you can image from a rhodactis to a ricordea being sold for $ 30 to $60 ten years ago.....to buying maybe 2 polyps on a frag plug today from $25 to hundreds for a single polyp, REALLY ?. From an entire colony of any zoanthid of 50 to 100 polyps ten years ago for $ 30 to $60, to now paying up to hundreds and even thousands for a single polyp, REALLY....REALLY ? I mean it's crystal clear what has happened. Everyone has jumped on the bandwagon. Can you hunt and find a cheap coral frag at a swap? For some, sure you can, but go online and pick your favorite coral with any coloration at all, or walk into your LFS ( most ) and try to find it. Oh you might find it, but it will cost you your first born. All corals at swaps aren't cheap or affordable by the way. Input your coral name here _______________, ask for it, and watch your own jaw drop.
A bottle of scotch doesn't reproduce a bottle of scotch overnight......this is the issue. Reefers don't want more for less, they just want what's reasonably affordable as it has always been. Frankfurts don't reproduce overnight and are you saying these sky high prices are due to inflation?
My friend, I have mentored 10 reefers for two years now who were all leaving this hobby due to these coral prices. Many of my reefing friends around the country whom I personally knew have also left the hobby for the same reason. Yes, there's a problem.....and it's real. Just look at every post in this thread and read all the links posted and I think it's very clear. Corals are no longer cheap or affordable as a whole. It's a hobby my friend, that's how it use to feel at least and thousands feel the same. But I would read the entire thread and I think you will see what everyone's concerns are. Just my opinion my friend and no offense taken or given. After all, it's just a boring discussion.
MUCHO
PS
The 5 polyps for $5.00 the reefer mentioned above is something you seldom it ever see. My point is this.....go to any online site and find 5 blue, red, yellow or stunning orange polyps for $5.00....I mean the polyps you guys place these names on. I'm talking about the polyps that are photographed under total actinics, the polyps that everyone claim is rare, ultra, limited edition
, the polyps with 10 tiny specks which supposedly makes them the next biggest thing yadda yadda.You won't find those polyps my friend.
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Acronic
The Fifth Master
Unfortunately, I did read the whole thread. The take away is that people are up in arms because they can't get what they want for cheap.
I'm sorry but I do not subscribe to the socialist coral game.
You misunderstood my scotch metaphor.
Like it or not the landscape for this industry has changed in more ways than the obvious presents itself. Learn to adapt because it's survival of the fittest. Overpriced online shopping is not the only way to get unique and colorful corals. The solution is networking but the problem is hidden right in the middle of that word. It's hard work.
I think it's great that you mentor new hobbyists, kudos to you. That is exactly the type of community sacrifice more people should strive to provide.
But the fact of the matter is we are on separate sides of the fence here like Brian said.
Look, I understand that some of these corals were had cheaper in the day and your right, some of these prices are crazy! I definitely am not paying $300 for a frag. But The truth is that we are lucky, to have such choice and selection. You know, one day I will get that Ferrari! And I'm happy it's there waiting for me.
I'm sorry but I do not subscribe to the socialist coral game.
You misunderstood my scotch metaphor.
Like it or not the landscape for this industry has changed in more ways than the obvious presents itself. Learn to adapt because it's survival of the fittest. Overpriced online shopping is not the only way to get unique and colorful corals. The solution is networking but the problem is hidden right in the middle of that word. It's hard work.
I think it's great that you mentor new hobbyists, kudos to you. That is exactly the type of community sacrifice more people should strive to provide.
But the fact of the matter is we are on separate sides of the fence here like Brian said.
Look, I understand that some of these corals were had cheaper in the day and your right, some of these prices are crazy! I definitely am not paying $300 for a frag. But The truth is that we are lucky, to have such choice and selection. You know, one day I will get that Ferrari! And I'm happy it's there waiting for me.
I hope you get that Ferrari also my friend. Yes, we are lucky, but the gouging is hurting the hobby we both love. In the next 10 years, this hobby will be unrecognizable and I hope that I'm wrong.
Thanks again sir.
Mooch
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Acronic
The Fifth Master
But the hobby as a whole is within reach. Don't hyper focus on the 20% that isn't.
You obviously see the positive side to the community and the comradery of it. As long as that stays alive so will the hobby.
Certainly, air out the dirty laundry founded on lies and deception but don't taint the good name of the hobby with the blood of the few. Some people do pay the mortgage with this hobby and they are just as entitled to make a living in this capitalist economy as the rest of us.
Cheers brother! Reef on
You obviously see the positive side to the community and the comradery of it. As long as that stays alive so will the hobby.
Certainly, air out the dirty laundry founded on lies and deception but don't taint the good name of the hobby with the blood of the few. Some people do pay the mortgage with this hobby and they are just as entitled to make a living in this capitalist economy as the rest of us.
Cheers brother! Reef on
But bro......it's way more then 20% you know that.
I'm not the one who would ever taint this great hobby I love. I feel that others are and have. But I digress....boat drinks :beer:
Cheers
Great discussion.
you know that.I'm not the one who would ever taint this great hobby I love. I feel that others are and have. But I digress....boat drinks :beer:
Cheers
Great discussion.
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Tweaked
FUP&A Member
I was talking with a buddy who operates a store and was showing me the new mushroom prices going around. Basic shrooms are sky rocketing. I do see allot of what everyone is saying, and hope my point comes across as well. Trading with fellow reefers and going to swaps may help your wallet, but fear the prices are too far gone and are never coming back to the "good ole days".
sde1500
Active member
This thread presents two pretty clear sides, I hesitate to even post on it anymore because it almost feels to have reached :deadhorse1: levels, but here goes.
A lot has changed in 10+ years. Currently we are undergoing one of the largest coral bleaching events in history. I'm sure 10 years ago it was more common to be able to buy more readily available colonies collected from the wild. If you can dive down and find large quantities to collect with no worry about future supply, then of course prices will be cheap. That probably isn't the case anymore.
Knowing the dangers our reefs are in, I will choose to not buy large collected chunks. I would like to lessen the impact my hobby has on nature, thus I will happily pay more for a piece that was aqua-cultured. This inherently brings about higher costs. But I am ok with that, because it doesn't harm the reefs. Most of this aqua-culturing will be done by businesses. I would find it hard to believe that fragging from hobbyist tanks would provide enough supply to satiate the demand in the market place. These businesses need to make money, and that's fine. But their costs are higher, and I'm not talking about just real costs. There is a time value associated with money. They have to make a choice, invest the money needed to set up a large scale aquaculture facility, or not. This money could be spent buying wild collected pieces and selling them to the public. Faster turn around on their money. If they choose to invest in an aquaculture setup, they choose to delay making money, this will be factored into costs of corals in time. And so beyond all the fixed costs of piles of tanks and other equipment associated with these set ups, we have the cost of choosing to wait and grow out frags to sell.
Coral names. Sure some are pretty crazy. Many get muddy, don't stick, change frequently etc. But many don't. I know some here think they are stupid all together. But honestly, how many different color combinations do we see with some types of coral? Take zoas, the main group that seem to carry the names and this conversation. Would it be easier to identify a polyp as a green and yellow ringed with a little orange, and yellow/green skirt, or a widely accepted name such as Rasta? The widely accepted and seen names make things easier. I know some are for hype, but for these widely known once, I like them because I know what it is. You tell me you have some Rastas, I know how they should look. I'll give you Limited Edition is a little silly, if you keep propagating it and selling it, its not Limited Edition. Limited supply maybe.
Supply and Demand. One camp says its a total farce used to support price gougers, the other says its legit. Well, as I mentioned earlier, the reefs are bleaching. So, tell me, do we really think our reefs dying does not constrict supply? Now for individual named varieties, it is incorrect to count what is in someone's tank as supply. Mucho, sorry for calling you by name but it makes this example easier, I read your TOTM thread, saw all the zoa colonies pictured there. They all look excellent, but if you aren't selling them, they are not supply. You may have a type I am looking for, and couldn't find it anywhere around, but for one site selling a polyp for $20. If I wanted it, maybe I'd buy it. You could tell me that I got ripped off, that you have hundreds, and bought a rock full of them for 20$ back in the day and that they are a very common type.. Which is awesome, but if you aren't selling them, and others aren't either, then you don't count as part of the supply. Some say specific morphs grow really slow, other types don't do well in home tanks, or survive fragging. So, if one is looking for a specific color variant, that may indeed be rare. This argument would be more challenging to prove out, because many of those who state that they aren't rare, also subscribe to the belief that names are stupid. So how can we further the discussion on this? I give you a name, show you a picture of it, and you show me colonies of them?
I think I had more, but got distracted, and this has been typed out over a decent period of time, so lets just leave it at that for now.
A lot has changed in 10+ years. Currently we are undergoing one of the largest coral bleaching events in history. I'm sure 10 years ago it was more common to be able to buy more readily available colonies collected from the wild. If you can dive down and find large quantities to collect with no worry about future supply, then of course prices will be cheap. That probably isn't the case anymore.
Knowing the dangers our reefs are in, I will choose to not buy large collected chunks. I would like to lessen the impact my hobby has on nature, thus I will happily pay more for a piece that was aqua-cultured. This inherently brings about higher costs. But I am ok with that, because it doesn't harm the reefs. Most of this aqua-culturing will be done by businesses. I would find it hard to believe that fragging from hobbyist tanks would provide enough supply to satiate the demand in the market place. These businesses need to make money, and that's fine. But their costs are higher, and I'm not talking about just real costs. There is a time value associated with money. They have to make a choice, invest the money needed to set up a large scale aquaculture facility, or not. This money could be spent buying wild collected pieces and selling them to the public. Faster turn around on their money. If they choose to invest in an aquaculture setup, they choose to delay making money, this will be factored into costs of corals in time. And so beyond all the fixed costs of piles of tanks and other equipment associated with these set ups, we have the cost of choosing to wait and grow out frags to sell.
Coral names. Sure some are pretty crazy. Many get muddy, don't stick, change frequently etc. But many don't. I know some here think they are stupid all together. But honestly, how many different color combinations do we see with some types of coral? Take zoas, the main group that seem to carry the names and this conversation. Would it be easier to identify a polyp as a green and yellow ringed with a little orange, and yellow/green skirt, or a widely accepted name such as Rasta? The widely accepted and seen names make things easier. I know some are for hype, but for these widely known once, I like them because I know what it is. You tell me you have some Rastas, I know how they should look. I'll give you Limited Edition is a little silly, if you keep propagating it and selling it, its not Limited Edition. Limited supply maybe.
Supply and Demand. One camp says its a total farce used to support price gougers, the other says its legit. Well, as I mentioned earlier, the reefs are bleaching. So, tell me, do we really think our reefs dying does not constrict supply? Now for individual named varieties, it is incorrect to count what is in someone's tank as supply. Mucho, sorry for calling you by name but it makes this example easier, I read your TOTM thread, saw all the zoa colonies pictured there. They all look excellent, but if you aren't selling them, they are not supply. You may have a type I am looking for, and couldn't find it anywhere around, but for one site selling a polyp for $20. If I wanted it, maybe I'd buy it. You could tell me that I got ripped off, that you have hundreds, and bought a rock full of them for 20$ back in the day and that they are a very common type.. Which is awesome, but if you aren't selling them, and others aren't either, then you don't count as part of the supply. Some say specific morphs grow really slow, other types don't do well in home tanks, or survive fragging. So, if one is looking for a specific color variant, that may indeed be rare. This argument would be more challenging to prove out, because many of those who state that they aren't rare, also subscribe to the belief that names are stupid. So how can we further the discussion on this? I give you a name, show you a picture of it, and you show me colonies of them?
I think I had more, but got distracted, and this has been typed out over a decent period of time, so lets just leave it at that for now.
OBTW, I will be in Toronto this summer and would love to check out that Ferrari bro :beer:
MUCHO
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No my friend, just enjoy them as they are and watch them grow. Good luck with them.
Mooch
Hello my friend, long time.
I agree 100 %....a lot of reefers are seeing the light that has exposed what's going on in this hobby. These types of discussions are making a big difference to an awful lot of new reefers.
MUCHO
SIR PATRICK
New member
Sharing of said information can take things back to the "good 'ol days"
Your point comes across well on this end
SIR PATRICK
New member
And which side has the most long term experience? Noted in this thread and others here on RC and others? Which side has facts to back up their knowlege from the begining and not just 5 years ago?
I must say also- there is a pretty clear side- in the middle, if you can read between the lines, as tweeked (I think) is trying to say.
SIR PATRICK
New member
And that is why alot of us pay a bit more than $1 per polyp locally, LFS or online. Sometimes even $5/polyp- to help with the whole cherry picking and price gouging (more than $5/polyp or small fresh cut/glued frag) in this hobby.
I have recently (this month) baught 6 polyp zoa frags for less than $20- same morph is being pimped online for $40 per ployp...
Doesnt make sense...unless you want to be taken in this hobby-
Bottom line- dont get ripped off, and as have some said- look local- swap, club or even good online vendor. Dont be "taken" by the polyp coral "pimps"
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