this thread presents two pretty clear sides, i hesitate to even post on it anymore because it almost feels to have reached :deadhorse1: Levels, but here goes.
A lot has changed in 10+ years. Currently we are undergoing one of the largest coral bleaching events in history. I'm sure 10 years ago it was more common to be able to buy more readily available colonies collected from the wild. If you can dive down and find large quantities to collect with no worry about future supply, then of course prices will be cheap. That probably isn't the case anymore.
Are you saying that the sky high price hikes that began in 04/05 are due to historical bleaching events? And were these mass events in each of the collected areas we are speaking of around the world including off the shores of Florida? Yes, it was not only common, but it was the norm post 04/05 to walk into any lfs and buy a colony of anything under $100. I have heard and read every reason/excuse possible for justifying these ridiculous prices hikes, but now we're adding "bleaching" to justify this also?
1. It's a common polyp and the only difference from that one to this one is the orange tips. Did bleaching cause this price hike for a single solitary polyp?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2553342
I can literally list thousands of these post everywhere.
Did bleaching cause everyone who ordered or received a retail shipment of mushrooms on a 6" x 6" rock to frag off 30 poylps to create 30 single frags on a white plug and charge $ 20 to $ 1,000 for a polyps with any coloration?
My sources confirms that yes, colonies are still being harvested though somewhat less from the wild then 10 years ago.
knowing the dangers our reefs are in, i will choose to not buy large collected chunks. I would like to lessen the impact my hobby has on nature, thus i will happily pay more for a piece that was aqua-cultured. This inherently brings about higher costs. But i am ok with that, because it doesn't harm the reefs. Most of this aqua-culturing will be done by businesses. I would find it hard to believe that fragging from hobbyist tanks would provide enough supply to satiate the demand in the market place. These businesses need to make money, and that's fine. But their costs are higher, and i'm not talking about just real costs. There is a time value associated with money. They have to make a choice, invest the money needed to set up a large scale aquaculture facility, or not. This money could be spent buying wild collected pieces and selling them to the public. Faster turn around on their money. If they choose to invest in an aquaculture setup, they choose to delay making money, this will be factored into costs of corals in time. And so beyond all the fixed costs of piles of tanks and other equipment associated with these set ups, we have the cost of choosing to wait and grow out frags to sell.
I feel if someone only wants to buy tiny frags, that's great for them. However, if others choose not to do that, why must they acquiesce to what you prefer? Maybe they are not ok with that. Inflated coral pricing is literally killing the hobby slowly. The reasons being given are simply mind boggling. Do you care to keep this hobby affordable for the average middle class family? Did you by chance read these threads of interest? I'm not trying to be mean or smart mouth, but if you have the chance, just check them out at your leisure.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316723
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1941053
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1920486
I too use to say, " buy cultured corals only and save the reefs". I am always willing to listen and learn something new and that is exactly what happened when I read something in one of these threads above as I recall. Someone stated that they too wanted to help save the reef by purchasing cultured corals only. To that someone said, and I'm paraphrasing, " hogwash, if you/we were so concerned with saving and preserving the reefs, none of us would be reefing. That 140 lbs of figi rock came from the ocean, your fish, if not captive breed came from a reef, any of those corals you may own and not know their origin might have come from a reef, those inverts could have come from a reef etc etc etc. Those clams if not cultured, came from a reef. When I heard that, it hit me like a ton of bricks, because it's true. I try to respect the reef and I take from it as little as possible. In fact, I have taken anything from it in 7 years.
coral names. Sure some are pretty crazy. Many get muddy, don't stick, change frequently etc. But many don't. I know some here think they are stupid all together. But honestly, how many different color combinations do we see with some types of coral? Take zoas, the main group that seem to carry the names and this conversation. Would it be easier to identify a polyp as a green and yellow ringed with a little orange, and yellow/green skirt, or a widely accepted name such as rasta? The widely accepted and seen names make things easier. I know some are for hype, but for these widely known once, i like them because i know what it is. You tell me you have some rastas, i know how they should look. I'll give you limited edition is a little silly, if you keep propagating it and selling it, its not limited edition. Limited supply maybe.
The reason so many have a problem with names is that it coincided with the advent of sky high prices. Both occurred and began at the same time. Many of them have multiple names, really? It bothers me to see a young reefer who has contacted me locally to help him and when I arrive at his home he begins to rattle off the name of every coral in his tank. As if this is impressive, but he can't tell me the name of a single nuisance algae which is overtaking his tank. He has 12 frags all struggling to survive, paid over $500 in total for them, but he checks his salinty with a hydrometer. That is a short list of reasons why I hate names. I never used names and sold corals all over the world, please see the link below.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208268
Just take a picture and share it.....it's that easy.....and you won't have to remember a single name.
supply and demand. One camp says its a total farce used to support price gougers, the other says its legit. Well, as i mentioned earlier, the reefs are bleaching. So, tell me, do we really think our reefs dying does not constrict supply? Now for individual named varieties, it is incorrect to count what is in someone's tank as supply. Mucho, sorry for calling you by name but it makes this example easier, i read your totm thread, saw all the zoa colonies pictured there. They all look excellent, but if you aren't selling them, they are not supply. You may have a type i am looking for, and couldn't find it anywhere around, but for one site selling a polyp for $20. If i wanted it, maybe i'd buy it. You could tell me that i got ripped off, that you have hundreds, and bought a rock full of them for 20$ back in the day and that they are a very common type.. Which is awesome, but if you aren't selling them, and others aren't either, then you don't count as part of the supply. Some say specific morphs grow really slow, other types don't do well in home tanks, or survive fragging. So, if one is looking for a specific color variant, that may indeed be rare. This argument would be more challenging to prove out, because many of those who state that they aren't rare, also subscribe to the belief that names are stupid. So how can we further the discussion on this? I give you a name, show you a picture of it, and you show me colonies of them?
Sir, I just don't follow your train of thought so I digress and it's ok for us to disagree.
i think i had more, but got distracted, and this has been typed out over a decent period of time, so lets just leave it at that for now.
