The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[PIPSTER]

Depends on beliefs, greed is generally considered a sin in all beliefs.

Profit, no matter how much, does NOT equal greed.

Greed doesn't exist in a buyer-seller relationship. It's impossible.

For a transaction to take place, both the buyer and seller agree, mutually agree on a price for a service or product.
The seller is going to ask for as much money as they think they can get for their product.
But the buyer is going to try to buy the product for the lowest amount of money they can get the seller to agree on to sell it.
Then, if a transaction is completed, both mutually agree by making the transaction that the price was right.

Greed exists when there's something that's available at no cost, but in a limited supply, and someone goes in and gets all of it, even though by doing so they can't even use all of what they got, and at the same time it keeps anyone else from getting what was available.

Food at a free buffet is an example. If someone goes thru the line and uses all the plates to get all the food for themselves, others will have no food there, and the greedy glutton won't even eat all of the food he\she took.

That's real greed that's uncalled for.

Another example of greed is someone passing a law that you must buy a certain product. Their product. Where is the freedom to say no?

If someone wants to sell a sps coral for $750, the buyer can just say no, and go somewhere else. No greed there.

 

[shred5]

Honestly I do not care what people buy and sell coral for. I just feel sorry for the buyer.
Anyone that has been in the hobby knows it goes through phases of what is popular and not after a while.

If something starts pulling large money and gets really popular like all of a sudden mushrooms have, those that collect the corals will start collecting more. Believe me if their is one bounce mushroom their are tons more. Nor only that those that have them start to chop them up and sell them and supply sky rockets. Almost every coral that has hit mass popularity gets killed in price. Why would anyone pay 500.00 for something that will be 50.00 in a year or so.

I mean the maxi mini's people were tripping over them and now even the worst LFS has them.

Acan were going like 500 a polyp and now are 5 a frag with most selling under 20.00..

Seems like a waste of money but hey it is not my money, spend away...

 

[rustyjames]

Don't be a Clark Griswald and get suckered into the Pea soup green station wagon.

Yeah, but that wagon really was LE.

 

[SIR PATRICK]

It might be interesting to calculate the cost of that GSP frag that Kendrid sold for $10.


Pure guestimates....
cost of initial GSP frag introduced into Kendrid's tank = $5
6 months to grow that tiny frag into a 5"x5" square...(estimate)
6 months x $100/mo for electricity= $600
6 months x $20/mo for water changes= $120
6 months worth of test kit chemicals= $50
6 months labor for testing, water changes, and equipment maintenance = I dunno, let's say 40 hrs @ $15/hr = $600
6 months capitalized cost of equipment (aquarium, filters, lighting, etc). Typical aquarium = $2000, lets capitalize it over 5 years ($2000/60 mo * 6 mo = $200

so... assuming that Kendrid sold no other frags from his tank (which would lower his COGS by spreading the cost over more units sold) that single 5"x5" GSP frag might have cost Kendrid...........

$1575 !!!!!

Change these guestimates all you like but the fact remains, there is NO WAY to produce a 5" x 5" GSP frag for $10.

Thats not even close....

Only a poor excuse to sell GSP for insane prices to those who do not understand how it does and to those who do not know better, but-

Nice try

 

[alton]

Since when is $10 a frag an insane price? GSP looks great and is an easy coral for a beginner, so are shrooms and xenia. Unless you are a sps collector and do not mind paying $100 for a 1/2" frag. But hey it is America and we all have the ability to do the research, and spend our money as we wish.

 

[sde1500]

Yea seriously, what the heck is happening here. People just starting to rage about anything now. A cheap frag of GSP is a cheap frag of GSP calm yo self people.

Lets try and bring this back on topic a bit? I will say, sure, some of the higher end prices will lend itself towards pulling the whole market higher. BUT, if you honestly think that this is the sole reason for higher prices, that is incredibly short sighted. Infact, I have yet to see even a reasonable try at refuting other people's thoughts as to why prices are higher.

You want to hate on something, hate on this attachment:

But honestly, I'd like to maybe continue a discussion with some people here. I am a newer reefer. I am not paying super high prices. But I also don't know what people consider too high of a price, it hasn't been actually articulated at all really. I went to a swap and bought some utter chaos, rastas, and wowsers for $5 a polyp. These guys are super bright, tank raised, and growing happily in my tank. I think I got a good value. Its been said, by seasoned reefers, that more and more unique colorful morphs are coming out all the time. Why is it not reasonable to expect them to fetch a higher price? I don't get that.

And why can't anyone consider that maybe other factors other than "names" and "Greed" have factored into higher prices over the last decade? Also something I don't understand and would love to be explained.

Originally Posted by MUCHO REEF View Post

The excuse list from post # 451

1. It's what the market will bear. People are paying thus market bearing it.

2. Oh it's just supply and demand. -Not sure why you have an issue with this, it literally is what it is.

3. The cost of reefing has gone up -if you say prices are higher, now haven't costs gone up?

4. It's due to the economy. Really? -I got nothing, I'll agree with you there

5. Gas prices are higher. ( I heard this 3 years ago ), and how much is gas today? -Shipping costs are indeed higher. Most prices with oil involved are very much downward inelastic. Meaning that they readily adjust higher, but are less willing to reduce as their cost inputs go down. Have you seen airline seat prices go down?

6. It's just a cycle, you have to wait till it cycles downward again. Wow, for coral? -meh thats odd

7. The high prices are due to advancement it reef technology. But that should lower cost. -Agreed, not doing any mental gymnastics on that one.

8. These sky high prices are good for reefing. So why are so many forums dead all over the web. Why have so many reefers I know informed me this is why they are leaving or have left?-Also skipping haha

9. The hobby is growing faster than the supply. Now I have a headache. -you seem quick to dismiss this anecdotal answer with your own also anecdotal response. Curious if you have anything to the contrary? Went to a frag swap this year, last year 800 attendees, this year 1k a new record after 9 years. New to Hobby section here tends to have the most activity, seems to lend some credence.

10. There's a limited supply of corals. No, there isn't.-Vast majority of wild reefs are bleaching, care to point me to your unlimited supply? Just because corals grow doesn't mean there is an unlimited supply.

11. Corals grow so slow, at least the rare ultra ones do and that's why they are so expensive. Really? -I added 3 frags, in the same area of zoanthids. one that commands a really high price has yet to add any new polyps, but it is starting to. One that commands a high price as well is budding off new polyps very fast, as is one of the cheaper ones I got. There are posts all over the forum where people with amazing tanks have fast growing pieces, and others that barely grow. not sure why you'd outright dismiss this.

There were no catastrophic bleaching events in every ocean that these corals came from in 2004/2005 when these lies and sky high prices began. It's pure greed. I beg to differ https://www.researchgate.net/profile...9e6e000000.pdf

Where and when does it end.

Mucho

 

[reefwars]

Honestly I do not care what people buy and sell coral for. I just feel sorry for the buyer.
Anyone that has been in the hobby knows it goes through phases of what is popular and not after a while.

If something starts pulling large money and gets really popular like all of a sudden mushrooms have, those that collect the corals will start collecting more. Believe me if their is one bounce mushroom their are tons more. Nor only that those that have them start to chop them up and sell them and supply sky rockets. Almost every coral that has hit mass popularity gets killed in price. Why would anyone pay 500.00 for something that will be 50.00 in a year or so.

I mean the maxi mini's people were tripping over them and now even the worst LFS has them.

Acan were going like 500 a polyp and now are 5 a frag with most selling under 20.00..

Seems like a waste of money but hey it is not my money, spend away...

But your missing the point of a buyer choosing to buy this and the seller going to sell what they can sell a product for , no one forced it it was a choice that had an option to research and buy for as little as possible or don't buy at all , sellers are going to sell buyers are going to buy , those that choose to participate in either are certainly responsible for their own actions , I feel bad for people all the time but rarely do I see someone flat out scammed ....it happens but in comparison to buyers who choose to buy not nearly as frequently.i love my zoanthids but I don't randomly just throw $250 on something, I mean if I did I wouldnt blame you for thinking I'm dumb or feel bad for me and hate the seller when I tell you I bought a polyp that didn't look as nice as its pic but if I merit the cost worthy and research my buy I more often then not leave happy vs disgruntled. Fads happen I've seen it the whole time I've been in the hobby it's one fad to another consistently , we pick and choose our battles but it always takes the same approach prices are high then as popularity increases and competition happen prices drop , hell if you have any other hobby you know this is just the way it is (guitar for me ) your talking about something that is based on showing off or bragging rights, once theres little left to battle over you move on to the next big fun thing .......fun being the key word which at the end of the day is what most buyers are after sure not everyone has a good time on the current ride of the week but that doesn't mean the ride is crap others are enjoying their hobby at this same time

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Went to a club member's house to sell him a light and check out the frags he had for sale. He had impressive tanks crammed with coral. There were several melon sized colonies of sps in there that he had grown out from frags. I ended up getting a few sps frags, some blue tubb zoas, and a 3 head purple hammer and just took $100 off the price of the light.

Nothing like reefers helping each other out.


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+1 my friend and it's still good to see reefers like that trying to help spread the wealth instead of creating it. Thanks for sharing.

MUCHO REEF

 

[Servillius]

+1 my friend and it's still good to see reefers like that trying to help spread the wealth instead of creating it. Thanks for sharing.

MUCHO REEF

Yeah, to heck with those guys creating wealth. We should all still be fighting over that first aptasia covered rock the very first reefer pulled out of the ocean. We'd all be much better off if we got rid of anyone adding value to the process.

Caring is sharing!

 

[PIPSTER]

+1 my friend and it's still good to see reefers like that trying to help spread the wealth instead of creating it. Thanks for sharing.

MUCHO REEF

What the heck is this garbage? :uzi::mad2:

Until wealth is created, there isn't any to spread around!

Take your socialism elsewhere, this was supposed to be about coral.
:debi:

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I made the mistake when I first entered the hobby I got my tank all settled in and I ventured about 50 miles outside of where I live to an upscale lfs. I was in the hunt for red hornet zoas. I approached the worker and asked how much is that frag it had maybe 4 polyps on it and it looked freshly glued. He proceeded to tell me that they were super rare and that they were going to run me 50 dollars a head !!!! Well me being a new hobby member just decided I was going to pay the price and go about my day. 200 dollars for a frag of red hornets I can get a whole colony at any swap I go to now for around$ 50 for a decent colony. Needless to say they spotted a newbie in the hobby years back and hit me with the hard prices. But hey every business is there to make money I just don't agree with the way that they went about it.

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Wow, so sorry that this happened to you my friend and trust me it happens all the time. Some would call you dumb or stupid for paying that amount or not even knowing that greed was the seller's motivation in telling you those lies, or that you should have done your research and known better. I can't tell you a single silly name that has been given to zoas and palys, so I had to do a search on the polyps you were sold. As I'm sure you know already, they aren't rare and have been readily circulating for at least 10 years now. They were like all others at the time, $30 to $50 for an entire huge colony.

Many will say that newbs and other aren't being ripped off when you are a prime example that it does happen. $50 a polyp is a total rip off and I hope all other young and new reefers read your reply and never go looking or buying anything by a name. Never buy zoa frags unless you can get 10 or 15 polyps for $15 to $25 or $30, never ever buy a freshly glued frag on a plug that is still white and never ever buy them by the polyp. Beware when you are told otherwise.

If you were near me at the time I would have shared my WEALTH of polyps with you and given you those same polyps for free instead of padding my pockets as a local reefer with creating more WEALTH off of a common coral and from an unsuspecting and trusting newb reefer. There are still reefers out there who are willing to help and to share with reefers like yourself.

I guess the title of this thread continues to ring true, " The whole coral pricing has become a joke".

Thanks for sharing that as it will help other reefers as well.

MUCHO

 

[Ohioreef1700]

Wow, so sorry that this happened to you my friend and trust me it happens all the time. Some would call you dumb or stupid for paying that amount or not even knowing that greed was the seller's motivation in telling you those lies, or that you should have done your research and known better. I can't tell you a single silly name that has been given to zoas and palys, so I had to do a search on the polyps you were sold. As I'm sure you know already, they aren't rare and have been readily circulating for at least 10 years now. They were like all others at the time, $30 to $50 for an entire huge colony.

Many will say that newbs and other aren't being ripped off when you are a prime example that it does happen. $50 a polyp is a total rip off and I hope all other young and new reefers read your reply and never go looking or buying anything by a name. Never buy zoa frags unless you can get 10 or 15 polyps for $15 to $25 or $30, never ever buy a freshly glued frag on a plug that is still white and never ever buy them by the polyp. Beware when you are told otherwise.

If you were near me at the time I would have shared my WEALTH of polyps with you and given you those same polyps for free instead of padding my pockets as a local reefer with creating more WEALTH off of a common coral and from an unsuspecting and trusting newb reefer. There are still reefers out there who are willing to help and to share with reefers like yourself.

I guess the title of this thread continues to ring true, " The whole coral pricing has become a joke".

Thanks for sharing that as it will help other reefers as well.

MUCHO

I am aware now. The tank looks good it just ended up costing me

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[reefwars]

What the heck is this garbage? :uzi::mad2:

Until wealth is created, there isn't any to spread around!

Take your socialism elsewhere, this was supposed to be about coral.
:debi:

Your likely wasting your breath , this isn't a debate it's a crusade lol

 

[EMeyer]

One of the frustrating things about this discussion is theres no objectively right price, so debating whether the current prices are too high or not is fairly pointless (although they obviously are).

But the named coral thing needs to be addressed separately. Named corals are a problem not because of the impacts on prices but because its bullshit. Two different red zoanthids are called "candy apple" or *** ever. This implies they are the same thing, propagated from the same colony originally. Which is of course complete nonsense.

Wholesalers bring in new shipments of zoanthids every week. A retailer buys a colony, decides that this week's green zoas look like last week's green zoas, and calls them "gorilla nipples" or "radioactive dragon eyes" or *** ever.

This is literally exactly as dishonest as if a dog breeder were to catch two black dogs on the side of the road and call them both "purebred black labs". Its exactly the same situation, but for some reason reefers accept it.

Anytime someone tries to sell you a "named" coral they are lying to you and you should make your purchasing decision accordingly.

 

[sde1500]

Anytime someone tries to sell you a "named" coral they are lying to you and you should make your purchasing decision accordingly.

That is a pretty tough stance to take. I can ask someone if they have a large number of different named Zoanthids, all that have very standard names. Rastas, sunny d's, utter chaos, etc. Sure all names are made up. But plenty have stuck. If I go to you and offer to sell you some rasta zoanthids, i'll be selling you exactly what they are called by many, rastas, why would that suddenly make me a liar?

 

[EMeyer]

The point is there is no reason to suspect that what you call "rastas" are the same as what another person calls "rastas".

If I sell you a black dog and because it looks black, tell you its a purebred black labrador. Is that OK? What if the guy I bought it from tells me it was a purebred black lab, can I call it a black lab then?

No -- only pedigree paperwork makes it OK. Documented evidence that its actually a black lab.

In the coral world, we have people basing names on superficial similarity and word of mouth. Perhaps the last seller in the line shouldnt be accused of lying, but its surely a load of bullshit anyway.

 

[Ohioreef1700]

The point is there is no reason to suspect that what you call "rastas" are the same as what another person calls "rastas".

If I sell you a black dog and because it looks black, tell you its a purebred black labrador. Is that OK? What if the guy I bought it from tells me it was a purebred black lab, can I call it a black lab then?

No -- only pedigree paperwork makes it OK. Documented evidence that its actually a black lab.

In the coral world, we have people basing names on superficial similarity and word of mouth. Perhaps the last seller in the line shouldnt be accused of lying, but its surely a load of bullshit anyway.

I would say it's all what you are willing to pay its not like it's your money so if someone's willing to pay top dollar for a peice then let them it's not hurting you any

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[MUCHO REEF]

I am aware now. The tank looks good it just ended up costing me

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A costly lesson for sure, but one that will help everyone like yourself who reads this and hopefully they won't make that same mistake. Good luck on your endeavor my friend.

Good to see a Wolverine and a Buckeye communicating .

 

[sde1500]

The point is there is no reason to suspect that what you call "rastas" are the same as what another person calls "rastas".

If I sell you a black dog and because it looks black, tell you its a purebred black labrador. Is that OK? What if the guy I bought it from tells me it was a purebred black lab, can I call it a black lab then?

No -- only pedigree paperwork makes it OK. Documented evidence that its actually a black lab.

In the coral world, we have people basing names on superficial similarity and word of mouth. Perhaps the last seller in the line shouldnt be accused of lying, but its surely a load of bullshit anyway.

So names are bull, how do you identify corals. I assume pictures? So if I said I'm selling Rastas and gave you a pic, would that suffice? Or do you only go by description. Just curious because I would think Rastas are easier than "selling green orange and yellow zoanthids" which could describe any number of different morphs.

 

[EMeyer]

sde1500: From my perspective, yes, a picture is what we should go by. Its unrealistic to think people are going to do genetic testing or maintain pedigrees. A pic with a description is what I'd prefer.

This practice would be more honest because it wouldnt imply that all "rastas" are the same or even related -- and it would help move prices down across the board, because it would make it obvious that there are lots of yellow, green, and orange zoas on the market. Whereas JoeBobs Special LE Rasta sounds rare even though its actually just another green yellow and orange zoa.

Just my two cents.

I would say it's all what you are willing to pay its not like it's your money so if someone's willing to pay top dollar for a peice then let them it's not hurting you any

So you think the price other people are willing to pay for gasoline doesnt affect the price the gas station charges you? I'm not sure where to start in dispelling that misconception, if so.