Think like a fish

[scubasteve06]

Umm.......okay, to me it's important how fish react & act in capativity more so than what they do in the ocean, because it's not the same.

Other than interesting ancedotes, I'm not sure what your point is..................90% of the reefers are never going to go diving.

Where do you think those fish in your tank came from besides maybe a clownfish or dottyback that was tank raised by ORA or other aquaculture business? There behavior in our tanks is going to be based on what they have done while they were wild to a certain point like when we feed them. As soon as I go to slide the egg crate of the top of my tank my fish are there and they know it is time to be fed. I know this isn't a behavior fish would exhibit in the wild, but it is a learned behavior just like all their behaviors.

 

[Paul B]

Bill maybe next year you will want to come diving west of you off my boat.

 

[chimmike]

I also remember the 50s :lol:

:bigeyes: the 50's? lol!

 

[Paul B]

the 50's? lol!

Why not? I was born in the late 40s. Thats when Lincoln was President and Men were Men. :lmao:

Way before computers were invented and there was 2 or 3 shows on TV. And after 10PM there was no picture on TV just a white dot.
When you could tell a Chevy from a Ford, when only rich people drove Cadillacs. When no one but nerds went to college.
And no one you ever met flew in a plane. When they shoveled coal to keep your school warm. When bluejeans were only worm by farmers.
When tweeting meant you had a sick canary. When gas costs 22 cents.
When you had to put a dime in a public phone to call someone. And when a fish tank just had fish in it, gold fish. :dance:

 

[Clams55]

Referring to what scubasteve06 said, another beautiful example of conditioning!

 

[johnike]

If this was the lounge, I coulda claimed this page! Well said Paul and snorvich!

 

[Agu]

Umm.......okay, to me it's important how fish react & act in capativity more so than what they do in the ocean, because it's not the same.

Other than interesting ancedotes, I'm not sure what your point is..................90% of the reefers are never going to go diving.

I don't dive but I've done a lot of snorkeling in the Yucatan. Anybody can snorkel. I to prefer to stay in one place and watch the interactions. Took a couple of trips with guides but their job was to show as much as possible in an hour to 20 people. After that I just swam out and hovered over a rock formation, or a sea grass bed, or under a pier. Watching the damsels protect their tiny piece of the ocean, counting how many critters were on one piece of rock, or snorkeling under a pier to see the interactions of several species (they fished off that pier but I never got hooked) taught me more about the animals we keep than any website or book.

 

[Big E]

It's great it was interesting for you to see the interaction but I haven't read anything in this thread that is going to help maintain a better home for my fish.

My only point was & is the interaction is not the same as it is in capativity. I sit at a desk for 8 hours a day 8 feet from where my fish can't see me & their interaction is drastically different than when they can see me. Try it, you might be suprised by what you see.

My observation was discounted as nothing..............but watching them in the ocean is supposed to be an epiphany...........lol.

I agree that observation can be advantageous but it isn't limited to divers & snorklers

 

[snorvich]

Well, despite everything said about aquarium behavior, I try to design my tanks around natural behavior in the ocean. The reason I HAVE tanks is because I am fascinated by ocean behavior and wanted to observe it as much as possible when I was unable to dive. So for the most part, I keep fish in accordance, as much as possible with what they would experience on a small part of the reef. But of course, to each their own. Still, I think if you want to be very successful in this hobby, Paul's view of the world may allow the best chance: nutrition, environment, tank mates.

 

[Paul B]

I haven't read anything in this thread that is going to help maintain a better home for my fish.

Ed I am sorry I didn't convey the feeling I get when I dive and try to learn how the animals exist in the sea so I can make life better in a tank.
I did say:

If we know what they are supposed to do, where they prefer to live, what they like to eat, how they catch their food, what they are afraid of, how they find a mate etc. maybe we will be able to house them more comfortably where they will be less prone to stress which in a fish is a major cause for disease.

I said, Maybe" because it "may" not help to know how the fish live in the sea. IMO it does.
I think I have swam with almost every fish I have kept. I am sure I could have kept them without spending time with them but then I would have to get all of my information from second hand sources, rumors or theories.
For instance I spent some time with Moorish Idols in the South Pacific and I learned that they eat almost nothing but a lime green sponge and live in mated pairs. I came home and bought an Idol and collected sponge for it to eat. It lived five years until I killed it in an accident. 5 years stinks but for a moorish Idol it is almost a record.
I have also spent some time with longnosed and copperband butterflies and noticed they spend most of their time pulling worms from holes in rock. I feed them worms, many people feed them mysis and a lot of people have trouble getting them to eat but that particular fish lives on practically nothing but worms.
I personally like first hand accounts. But to each his own
Have a great day. :beer:

 

[cpl40475]

Pauls tank is almost 40 yrs old. If he (and I'm sure he does) relics what he sees while diving then I'd bet money that theres ALOT of true information in what he stated at the beginning.

 

[Paul B]

Thank you Cpl. Are you a corporal or a Veteran? I see your avitar and have that flag flying sometimes in front of my house.

 

[Agu]

Watching the damsels protect their tiny piece of the ocean.....

I originally posted that and it influenced my stocking choices. I only have clownfish/damsels in my nano tanks because in their world a small environment they can protect is the most optimal environment I can provide.

It's about recognizing the attributes of an animal and providing the best environment.

 

[pavelow360]

They have what some people call a remote "feel". They can actually "feel" objects that they are not touching.
They do this through the lateral line. All fish have this, it is just more pronounced on some fish than others. It starts on the head near the eyes and if you look close you will see a definate line that goes all the way to the tail. This line is actually a bunch of nerves that allow the fish to feel much better than we can with our hands.
It also allows fish to school right next to each other without ever crashing. It lets them practically fly into a coral head at the slightest provocation without getting the slightest scratch. A fish can easily swim around a tank in total darkness and not crash into rocks or even the glass.
We all know how easy they can evade a net dragged behind them. A fish with one eye has no trouble at all and gets along just as well as a fish with both eyes.
This system works like all nerves on electricity. But it is preasure that activates the nerves in the first place. Some fish have evolved to use this electricity to stun pray like stargazers, and electric eels. :bum:

Is this proven or just your theory? I am not questioning the validity, just that it might explain about my thoughts. Just yesterday, I was watching my occelaris clown and firefish goby together. The clown's former partner was lost a month or two ago and the clown seems to want to pair with the goby. The goby seems to tolerate it more as time goes on. I was watching them interact and wondered about how fish "feel", they do not touch, yet they become mates through a fondness of one another... anyway, saw this thread and it seems to explain it for me.. thanks

 

[scubasteve06]

Is this proven or just your theory? I am not questioning the validity, just that it might explain about my thoughts. Just yesterday, I was watching my occelaris clown and firefish goby together. The clown's former partner was lost a month or two ago and the clown seems to want to pair with the goby. The goby seems to tolerate it more as time goes on. I was watching them interact and wondered about how fish "feel", they do not touch, yet they become mates through a fondness of one another... anyway, saw this thread and it seems to explain it for me.. thanks

Before my current occlearis clowns mate perished like yours I would witness them only at night time when the lights were out snuggling with each other. They would very gently rub noses and wiggle softly up against each other almost looking for a nook to rest in. This isn't like the behavior that clowns exhibit when they pair up with the almost violent seizure like shaking that one of the two will exhibit during their 'pairing' dance. It was much more calm and controlled and seemed sensual in a way, so they must be able to determine force which means that they have to feel. We always say when a fish is certain to die that cutting its head off or putting it in a bowl of frozen water won't hurt it because fish don't feel. Well to an extent they may not be able to correlate feelings such as emotion and love, but I am certain that fish can feel, why else would a trigger grunt when its found its favortie morsel in the sand or in a clam, or grunt when netted out of the tank? Just like when drums are alerted or scared they make drumming noises that the other drum can sense and feel through their lateral line that something is wrong and that they need to flee. Just my 2 cents and some more insight and thought to Pauls thread.

 

[Paul B]

Is this proven or just your theory?

This is not my theory or even my idea. This is proven scientific fact that you don't find in aquarium literature. It is found more in scientific journels. When I first got into the salt hobby in the 70s there were no saltwater aquarium books or even magazines and any information you wanted was only found in marine biology books.
If you ever dive with rays you will see them skim over the sand until they suddenly stop to dig something to eat from below the sand. They can "feel" the food under the sand.
If fish did not have this ability they would all have bloody noses and broken teeth trying to navigate the intricate rockwork and solid glass in our tanks. If you scare a fish in the sea, it darts away very fast sometimes for long distances as thery are used to do. In a tank they get near the glass, which is clear, and turn way before they crash.
Many fish only come and eat at night. I once had a cusk eel, It is like a 6" bright yellow eel looking thing, I had that fish for 18 years before I killed it in an accident. I never fed him in all those years but if I looked at the tank at night with a flashlight in total darkness he was always swimming around under the rocks digging out worms.

 

[cpl40475]

Thank you Cpl. Are you a corporal or a Veteran? I see your avitar and have that flag flying sometimes in front of my house.

Both Paul.
14 years in the Army from 88 till 2002
That flag is on my car,shirts I have ETC. Yes I made the rank of Cpl due to a shoulder injury I couldnt go to any schools for further promotion. Now with the injury the can waive the push-ups on a PT test and give you the points needed for promotion.

 

[Paul B]

Thats cool, Thanks for your service. I was in the First Cav in 69 to 71.
I made Sgt E5 but I was in Nam and Cambodia so it was easy.

 

[cpl40475]

Yeah you had it alot easier than I did....THAT WAS VERY HARD TO SAY...even though I knew it was a joke. Thank you for your service to the US and also for your knowledge and humor here on RC :beer:

 

[scubasteve06]

Thank you both for your service to our country I think a lot of people take for granted the blood and sweat you guys put out for us on a day in day out basis with no regards for anyones life, but those of us at home safe in our beds while Paul was either thigh deep in a rice patty or you in 130 degree desert heat in the gulf. Hats off to both you gents. My grandfather was a Lt. Col (bird colonel as you guys like to say) in the Army during the 2nd WW, My uncle is a Major in the Air Force and is a Navigator for the B-52 bombers and the refueling plane (forgot very similar to the B-52 I think), my other uncle (both my mom's brothers) was a Sg. during Vietnam and the Korean wars, and my Cousin (uncles son) was a Sg. First Class in the marines and was one of if not the first platoons to arrive in Afghanistan after 9/11. I can proudly say that one of my close family members has served in every war but one in this century that this country has fought for freedom and justice. I understand what you guys have to do as soldiers in this country and don't take for granted any of it. I am going to stop now as I am kinda gettin emotional and lets get this back on track with advanced fish topics with paul!