Thinking about a Seahorse Fuge

[bohannbj]

Sorry for all the people who get offended by this, but try answering the guys questions. He doesn't want a philosophical debate he wants care tips. I'll try to answer as many questions for you as I can geezer. My experience is with dwarfs and reidi. Stay away from dwarfs they just aren't worth it in my opinion (super difficult to feed).
1. Buy a pair from seahorsesource.com I have been to his house and his stables are top notch and the best prices around. A+
2. Depending on tank mates, they can live in the reef tank with no problems and often do better than in a standard fuge (mine did). Best case scenario is a tank specifically designed for them with sand, rock overhangs and macro, just like in the wild (I have seen it diving).
3. Flow should be moderate to low, just like a softie tank.
4. They are messy if you are feeding frozen, but if you can keep the live pod plan going it takes care of itself. Good Protein skimmer will solve all your woes. Blue legs can also help.
5. Remember that part of the habitat should be designed for the pods. If you have enough rock and macro (chaeto especially), the pods will have hiding places and be able to escape the horses. This will allow the small ones to develop, breed and keep the cycle going.
6. Temps can be as high as 82 for a short period of time but it is better to be at 78 most of the time for Reidi. If you can go to 76 then you are set. Don't go much lower than that, I did and lost all my fry. Certainly not below 70.
7. Lighting is whatever you want.
8. You will want color in your tank or the horses will go bland in color. Fake coral or colorful macro can help with this if you don't want to deal with live corals.
9. Don't micro manage them by following them around with the feeding tube. This just stresses them and actually gets them to eat less. Seahorse source uses shells suctioned onto the glass and the horses use it like a trough.
10. If you want to breed them, I would look into erectus not reidi. The reidi fry are very difficult due to their size.
Feel free to pm with specific questions or post back. This is what worked for me with good success. No luck with the reidi fry, just too hard for me. Kudos to those that can.
Brent

 

[rayjay]

Sorry for all the people who get offended by this, but try answering the guys questions. He doesn't want a philosophical debate he wants care tips.

People responded based on their experiences and knowledge. It's pretty hard to advise to do something that you haven't had success in doing.
Unfortunately the numbers of people failing in attempts to do what the OP would like to do, far outweigh the numbers who do succeed.

Stay away from dwarfs they just aren't worth it in my opinion (super difficult to feed).

However, there are many dwarf keepers that don't have the same opinion.

Depending on tank mates, they can live in the reef tank with no problems and often do better than in a standard fuge (mine did).

Again, most other people trying have not had success.

Flow should be moderate to low, just like a softie tank.

Probably just a question of definition here of "moderate", but many keepers have what is considered by others to be high flow areas. The main point being that as long as you provide hitching in areas of low and medium flow, you can still have higher areas where some seahorses like to "ride the wave". Blasting type current flow would be discouraged as they could possibly be damaged if blown against something like rock work or other solid decor.

They are messy if you are feeding frozen, but if you can keep the live pod plan going it takes care of itself. Good Protein skimmer will solve all your woes.

Most keepers cannot keep a self sustaining population of any meaningful density of "pod" live as the seahorses can be relentless in picking off the "pod life", even with a lot of hiding accommodation for them.
A good skimmer definitely helps but will not solve all woes, IMO.

Blue legs can also help.

This is a contentious issue with some having success but others have problems with them.

Temps can be as high as 82 for a short period of time but it is better to be at 78 most of the time for Reidi. If you can go to 76 then you are set. Don't go much lower than that, I did and lost all my fry. Certainly not below 70.

Again a contentious issue as the recommendations today are based on failures of so many in the past.
As for the not below 70, I raise my reidi fry at temperatures between 68° and 72° depending on time of year, with the adults kept in temps as high as 74° but no problems other than less mobile at 68°.

You will want color in your tank or the horses will go bland in color. Fake coral or colorful macro can help with this if you don't want to deal with live corals.

Many people have problems even when using colourful decor and at this point I don't believe anyone has the answer to successfully keep seahorses colourful with most successes being just the specific seahorses choosing to have some colour.
I have seahorses from the same brood that have colour, (not the same for each though) while others remain black or brownish yellow, all in the same tank.

Seahorse source uses shells suctioned onto the glass and the horses use it like a trough.

I've run into a problem where some seahorses in each tank just will not feed from the trough, and ended up after about 6 months of trying, abandoning the attempt and now just add to the water column and turn off water flow except for a mini power head to keep some flow to disperse the frozen food.

No luck with the reidi fry, just too hard for me.

Don't knock yourself on this point as it took me to my tenth attempt before I found success. You never know, the very next try may have been successful for you.
The main point here, again, is that while there are success stories in non recommended situations, the majority of attempts are not successful, but hopefully whatever way the OP chooses to go, success will follow.

 

[Sk8r]

Following this with interest. Lethality for corals begins at 62 degrees downward...and while I'm not sure sps is the best partner tank for horses, because sps wants scrupulosly clean water, and softie coral probably produce too much 'softie spit' that could be unpleasant for the seahorses, the hardy euphyllias are tolerant of cooler temperatures, ditto caulestra, so lowering the general temperature into the mid-70's with these corals should be fine. Really big euphyllias are also good at cleaning the water, and like somewhat 'rich' water, and not too much minding cold down to 72 degrees (though 75) would be better--- so they might be a good partner-species. Just a suggestion.

 

[reefgeezer]

Thanks everyone for the the continued information and passionate debate. I'm glad to see someone else has chimed in that keeps seahorses in a reef environment. Thanks bohannbj. Good info sk8r. I use a couple of taodstools for that purpose. Unfortunately, right now, I have to add stuff (mostly cyclops) to the water to feed them.

I have a pretty good pod population in the reef thanks to a ball of cheto and rubble rock in the sump, but I'm having increasing diffuculty keeping the cheto growing. Right now, I struggle to keep nitrates above 0. I even add amino acids from time to time to supplement the nitrates. I do run a small biopellet reactor but don't supplement carbon beyond that. Because of this, I'm pretty sure the system will handle the higher bioload created by the seahorses, particularly when the mangroves begin growing.

The reef is mixed. It includes quite a few SPS corals, but I've purposely steered clear of the more sensititive ones. I've got mostly birdsnests and monti's (caps and digi). It is also 2 years old, so it's pretty mature. I've got quite a few fish (including for sk8r's benefit, a 4" Hippo Tang:lol2 and am adding more fish but that's a slow process as I've only got one small QT tank. I'll include pics of the reef in the build thread.

As to the flow for the UV, I still haven't calclated the dosage (flow rate) required to contol bacteria. I think the 80 gph mentioned above might be required to reduce virus or protoza but bacteria is easier to kill so, more flow can be used. If the flow requirement ends up being too low for an in-line model in the supply plumbing, I can plumb in a closed loop on a dedicated pump. I've got a few pumps laying around.

 

[bohannbj]

Nitrates of zero makes you the envy of the ball. I'm sure everyone here can attest that when you add a young couple of horses to your tank, that chaeto will have plenty of "food" to grow. Let's just say they were aptly named Sea"horses," VERY dirty for the stables.

 

[reefgeezer]

Nitrates of zero makes you the envy of the ball. I'm sure everyone here can attest that when you add a young couple of horses to your tank, that chaeto will have plenty of "food" to grow. Let's just say they were aptly named Sea"horses," VERY dirty for the stables.

I thought zero was good, then I found that it's really not. Amino Acids and all that other stuff people use to keep thier corals colored up in UNLS systems cost a fortune and are hard to balance.

Thanks for the "stable" comment. I have added a filter sock in the sump where the seahorse tank dumps back in. I use these in the flow from the main tank also and change them every other day, so it's no big deal.

It does sound like some more aggressive detritus eaters than snails and blue legs hermits might be a good addition. Does anyone have any suggestions in this area? How about a couple of Scooter Blennys?

I know my complaints about low nutrient levels conflict with my management of the system. What I am trying to do is keep my obsessive compulsive husbandry practices and excessive filtration and make it pay off by being able to keep a high bioload that I hope will include seahorses. I hope this idea isn't too crazy... :spin2:... I guess we'll know it a year or so.

 

[bohannbj]

Can you give me the source about the nitrates, I always love to read scientific journals about how I have been wrong. Can't learn anything from yes men. The blenny idea is novel, what about a madarin on FT. I am always looking for natural cleaning solutions and that would be like adding a rhumba to the tank.

 

[reefgeezer]

There are many threads on the RC Chemistry forum dealing with ultra-low nutrient systems (UNLS) systems. Although these systems seem to be a liitle out of vouge right now, there has been tons of discussion in the recent past. Much of the discussion focuses on the need for some nitrates in the system and the use of amino acids as a supplement. I'm not smart enough to mix it up too much with those guys, but there is a lot of great information available.

I can't say my method is that natural... A big skimmer and biopellets are mainly responsible for the low nutrients. They are supplemented by quite a bit of live rock and some macro algae. Oh... and 10% weekly water changes.

 

[rayjay]

I'm just beginning my 18th year of reefing now and other than for my very first tank, I've never tested for nitrates.
Whenever I start up a new tank I check for ammonia and nitrites but that's it.
I have nothing in any of the tanks to specifically work on nitrates as everything I have is low tech Berlin method, with no other equipment other than power heads and heaters. Even my lighting is the same as I started with, using NO fluorescent lighting.
Anyway, though I don't check for, I'm sure there has to be plenty of nitrates in the tank, but back when I started, nobody seemed to worry about nitrates so I never did myself, and still don't.

 

[reefgeezer]

I'm just beginning my 18th year of reefing now and other than for my very first tank, I've never tested for nitrates.
Whenever I start up a new tank I check for ammonia and nitrites but that's it.
I have nothing in any of the tanks to specifically work on nitrates as everything I have is low tech Berlin method, with no other equipment other than power heads and hes.ater Even my lighting is the same as I started with, using NO fluorescent lighting.
Anyway, though I don't check for, I'm sure there has to be plenty of nitrates in the tank, but back when I started, nobody seemed to worry about nitrates so I never did myself, and still don't.

Like you say, a few lucky ones may have success doing it that way, but most fail.

I've been doing this since the early 80's. I've seen the hobby from the wholesale, retail, and hobbyists' perspective. When I started undergravel filters were in vouge! The Berlin Method was a great step forward in its time but, many improvements have been made since.

I find it's better to know the nutrient levels particularly when the tank is new or major changes are being made. It also depends on the bioload you plan to run in a system. I keep high populations in my tanks. I'm just not happy with a few seahorses all alone in a bare bottom aquarium. To manage the higher bioload, I have to design systems and techniques that can handle it.

I do have a question for discussion. With all due respect, is there a chance that water quality issues are driving the need to limit bacterial populations so vigoursly rather than some immune deficiency in seahorses? I believe that nitrates above 40 ppm induce stress in fish and make them more prone to disease. Seahorses seem easier to stress. I ask because as I read other threads in this forum, it seems that in most cases the recommended systems and protocols would fail to limit nitrates to under 40 ppm with any reasonable bioload. Please don't take offense. I'm just trying to think things through.

 

[Allmost]

I added the seahorse tank to my SPS reef thinking it would pull nutritions out !

I was wrong fishgurl is right ... seahorses are REALLY messy

I believe that if water quality is good, meaning undetectable no3 and po4 and ... then the seahorses can as well build up a good immune system. ..

same goes for all fish ... I have been breeding stingrays for past 20 years ... same story there ...

if you do decide to connect it to your reef tank, be sure to have a way to export nutritions, seahorses do make ALOT of mess !

I have a DSB in my seahorse tank, macro algae, and also whole system is ran on Zeovit ! .


I dose carbon, which gives raise to bacteria, good and bad, but no bacteria infections. ....

 

[wdt2000]

Can you recap what your planning to do including your current and future stocking list?

 

[reefgeezer]

Dosing carbon has no bearing on the bacteria population that might be detrimental to seahorses. Yes nutrient levels will increase. But remember, I want them to and I'm also adding very efficient nutrient binders in the form of the mangroves. It is very difficult to compare one reef experience with another as all are different. Again, I'll have to see for myself.

The reef I'm adding this tank to has or will have quite a bit of export potential. The skimmer is a 6" ID X 27" tall Recirculating Reef Octo with both mesh mod and gate valve mod. It is fed by a 500 GPH pump. The air to water volume is quite good. The DIY biopellet reactor is capable of holding a about a litre or biopellets and if fed by a 350 GPH pump. It currently only has about a cup in it and the pump is throttled back so there is much more capacity to be had there. The system contains about 80 lbs of live rock that is two years old. Another 20 lbs (dead rock) or so will be added with the new tank. There is a lighted 12" X 9" X 10" deep fuge full of cheto, grape leaf calurpa, and rubble rock in the sump. There is also a gallon bucket with 8" of sand in it that has a 350 GPH flow rate over the top that I hope to remove after the mangroves and seagrass get established. It also uses 25 micron filter socks that are changed every other day, and a GAC/GFO Reactor that are changed every 3 weeks. I change 10% of the water per week, but that might actually be increased once the seahorse tank is added.

Here's my thought process... I can't imagine how that won't support two seahorses. If it won't, how can a little bit of live rock and a substandard canister filter recommended in so many of the threads in this forum? Neither can I see how I can't accomidate the increased bioload in order to keep the nutrient levels where I want them. I do understand the challenges. I'm just condfident that they can be overcome.

 

[reefgeezer]

Can you recap what your planning to do including your current and future stocking list?

The tank is a 75 Gallon mixed reef. It contains SPS, LPS, and Soft Corals, mushrooms and Zoanthids. The mushrooms and Zoas are not too happy though. The SPS corals are not the really sensititive ones, mostly birdsnests and monti's. It also houses a 4" Hippo Tang, a 6-line Wrasse, 2 Blue Chromis, several assorted Anthias (not full grown yet, Bartlets. Pink Square, Orange,and a Purple Queen), a Flasher Wrasse of some kind, 3 Fireish Gobies and a couple of bar gobies, and a Pigmy Angel. There is also a two year old Blue Linka Star and Banded Coral Shrimp in the tank along with some blue and red legged hermits and assorted snails.

I am planning to add a 40ish gallon cube tank to this system that will house a couple of Mandarins, a Pipefish, and two Seahorses. It will operate from the 75's sump. I originally called it a fuge, but i guess it's really more of a display tank. The cube will be a seagrass flat with a column of dead rock in the center to provide some height and substrate for mangroves to take root and grow out of the top. I'm not 100% sure I know how to manage the mangroves yet.

 

[bohannbj]

Mangroves are pretty easy as super cool. I have some red and black ones growing in a mangrove fuge. Personally I like the reds better because they float around as seeds until they find a spot, while the black ones are a little more place them in the sand and watch them grow. Definitely more fun than chaeto.

 

[reefgeezer]

Mangroves are pretty easy as super cool. I have some red and black ones growing in a mangrove fuge. Personally I like the reds better because they float around as seeds until they find a spot, while the black ones are a little more place them in the sand and watch them grow. Definitely more fun than chaeto.

I plan on using red mangroves. That seems to be what I see the most of in the hobby. I'm not sure yet if I'll use seeds. I think maybe there is some sort of bulb/pod/start you can purchase on-line that speeds up the rooting process a little. Not sure though. Looks like there's more reading to do.

 

[reefgeezer]

I've started a build thread in the Reef Discussion Forum. I'll update it regularly. Thanks everyone for your help. Hopefully I'll have good news to post over the next year or so.