Thoughts on ich

[Paul B]

This is not going to be a thread about curing ich, or about the ich life cycle, or about reef safe cures, Quarantining or not quaranting those things have been done to death. This is about why some tanks have no problem with ich, tanks that could go years with no ich even if ich infected fish are added.
Yes there are such tanks, plenty of them, but why?
I have some ideas on this.
Just today we were at my wife's neurologist, she has MS. He was telling us that there is this experimental treatment where the patient eats, or takes some type of larvae into their system. The larvae has paracites that are not harmful to humans but it seems to surpres MS.
They came to study these larvae because it seems that people from third world countries where the conditions and food are dirtier, don't hardly get MS.

That got me thinking, when I was in Viet Nam I had to take an anti malaria pill every day to prevent malaria. Malaria is a paracite very similar to ich.
If I didn't take the pill I was almost sure to contract malaria which was a court martial offence because the pill prevented it.
But the Vietnamese people who were born there and live in the jungle don't hardly get malaria.

Also I personally hardly ever get sick, I can eat and drink anything and nothing bothers me but the few times I went to Mexico I got dysentary.
The Mexican people don't walk around with dysentary, Why not?

Because they are immune. They built up an immunity from a lifetime of exposure.
My tank was started with water from the East River which runs along Manhattan, (no I am not saying to use this water)
Many times through the year I add mud from the Long Island Sound for the bacteria. I also add amphipods, rocks, and many creatures including water and seaweed right from the Sound or ocean.
I can and have many times added fish with obvious ich and it either disappeared or the fish died, but for the last 30 or so years, ich has never infected any of my fish some of which are 18 years old.
But in the beginning, in the 70s, before reefs when I used to clean everything and bleach the rocks every week, the tank was an ich magnet and I had to keep copper in the water continousely. If I didn't, I would lose everything.
I don't know for sure when it happened but at some point, the fish became immune. If we could figure out how that happens, that would be the greatest thing that could happen to this hobby.
Now please don't say my tank is a time bomb that will crash with ich any time, I hear that all the time, the thing is over 40 years old so that arguement holds no weight.
Something is happening to ward off the disease and we need to figure out what it is.
I know there are many hobbiests with old tanks who, like me never quarantine and their tanks are paracite free.
Why?
Anybody care to comment?

 

[shinninja]

Ill be the first to comment!!! I think your very right.
I feel that when I had my "older tank" 5-6 years old it was solid. I could throw in whatever and i never had an ich infection. Then i began to learn about the parasite and guess what. All of the sudden i had ich in my tank. I began to treat, quarantine, hypo salinity, copper, etc. I killed more fish and did more damage than when i left it alone. I now feed with garlic. I quarantine to make sure the animals eat then its good enough. I don't have any issues, yet. It hasn't been a long time like your 40+ year old tank but hopefully it will be good enough.

 

[shinninja]

I should have never taken the "red pill" -Matrix.

 

[Paul B]

Ill be the first to comment!!! I think your very right.

Wow, usually people start with something like:
Hey Dillweed, Whats wrong with you? Are you senile or somthing? You don't know a paracite from Paris Hilton's dog. :eek2:

 

[goreef170]

I think 80% of all saltwater tanks have ich. You do have to keep the fishes immune
system up , by feeding garlic, stress levels down ect. I have ich in my mixed reef tank. But I very seldom see it. Yes I have a U.V, cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasse ect. You can have a very successful tank even with ich.

 

[Lostinthedark]

I think Ich is more stress related than most people think. I know I have Ich. The only time it reared its ugly head was when I was on vacation and the tank temperature got too high. Most fish made it through but they had a hard time fighting it off.

 

[disc1]

I don't know a lot about ich, but I'll give you a thought in reference to your analogy to malaria. A lot of that type of resistance is evolutionary. It is genetic. Time and the mosquito have weeded out those who are susceptible.

For example, take the disease sickle cell anemia. Pretty much just people of African descent get it. But why? It is genetic. Turns out that a single copy of the gene is good for you since it helps make you resistant to malaria. Two copies of the gene (a homozygote) and you end up with blood trouble. Somewhere evolution made the decision that the quarter of people who get the blood problems was worth the half of people being resistant to malaria. So that gene persists in Africa, but not other places with related people but without malaria.

There are a number of other similar stories. Disease puts genetic pressure on a population to evolve a resistance.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

I can't seem to find the source now, but I recall reading something about how most wild fish are exposed to ich.

I personally have never quarantined or treated and I have added fish which I suspect have had parasites of some sort, yet I have not lost a fish at any time other than power outage, jumping out, or first week of introduction to my tank since getting back into this hobby about 4.5 years go.

 

[Steve Wright2]

Hi Paul

not had as many years experience as you with saltwater tanks ( only 8 years in total to date) but would agree with many of your thoughts/ feelings on the subject
I can also relate to the immunity situation analogy, becuase for my 1st couple of years in the PRC I was visiting the doctors on a monthly basis with upset stomachs
those visits have become increasing less frequent, which means I must be building up immunity to the different bugs etc that bowled me over when 1st introduced to my system

I have had experiences like you describe with my aquarium, in that resident fish seemed perfectly healthy showing no signs of any issues, yet new fish added, seemed to fall prey to something within a short period of introduction ( yet from QT these fish, seemed fine before being placed in DT) thus my conclusion was that the parasite was in the system, affecting the fish, but at such low levels that it was not really apparent
the existing fish where relatively immune, and thus never fully succumbed
but new fish, having built up no immunity, became infected on a major scale

Steve

 

[srusso]

To me ick is simple...

Ick is the result... or the product of a sick or lowered immunsystem. As another has said, it is VERY stress related.

I would say ick is present in every system that isn't activity being treated for it by some chemical means.

Its not a bad thing, a healthy fish produces what is needed to fight off ick. If the fish becomes stressed for long periods of times its defenses can no longer fight the parasite.

AND

Because a fish is healthy doesn't necessarily mean a fish can't get ick. Just as another has said...

"I added a fish with ick to a healthy tank and got the other fish infected."

Simple... the fish that was introduced was so heavily infected, it let the ick out number it and introduced so many new parasites to the tank, the other healthy fish "naturalized" defenses weren't enough to fight the parasite.

Just like our muscles if we don't use them they start to go away.

Same with the fish, if ick is never really much of an issue and suddenly a war of ick comes raging in there will be some issues that arrive...

(I have to run, will finish my rant in a bit...)

 

[discocarp]

The pig whipworm trials are interesting and show some promise, but lots of stuff shows "some" promise for MS before failing in larger, more controlled trials. AFAIK the early pig whipworm trials were only on 5 MS patients and only for 3 months. To me that is statistical nothingness for a chronic disease with an average of 1 attack a year (for RRMS anyway). That is not nearly enough to get me too excited about it, although it definitely merits more study. It is also being looked at for possible treatment of Crohn's disease.

What you are talking about is called the 'hygiene hypothesis'. For MS it doesn't explain some things - like why disease rates track latitude (thought to be linked to vit D and sun exposure). Or why even at northern latitudes in first world nations coastal areas that consume more fish have much lower disease rates.

I think it is interesting, but it is a long, long way from being anything concrete much less a cure (or even a control like the DMDs).

And I think it has zero relationship to ich, other than it got you thinking along similar lines for ich. I'm still going to q-tank everything so I *KNOW* I won't get ich. It is too simple and easy to keep it out of my tank to put faith in poorly understood resistance (which might just be subclinical infection).

 

[srusso]

If one keeps their fish well fed, in clean water, and with other compatible tank mates. Ick is never an issue...

A hungry or starving fish becomes stressed.

Dirty water will stress the fish if exposed for too long.

Non-stop aggression will stress the fish if the fish are incompatible or don't have enough room.

All these thing can cause ick... All these things have only one thing in common... Stress.

 

[discocarp]

If one keeps their fish well fed, in clean water, and with other compatible tank mates. Ick is never an issue...

I know for a fact that this is not correct. I've run a quarantined, ich free, healthy system for years. Then got lazy and added a single fish with ich and had an outbreak in almost every fish. They were not stressed or unhealthy in the least. I don't disagree that some fish do develop an ability to resist ich and some tanks do well with those resistant fish and no quarantine, but you cannot make a blanket statement like that. It just is not true across the board.

 

[srusso]

My feelings are "genetics" play a very small roll in how susceptible a fish is to the ick parasite.

Back to the muscle and war theory... Like a human, if you don't use the muscles you have they become weaker and smaller. Your body only produces what it needs. Once accustom to one way of life your body needs time to adjust before it can change. Therefore the ick parasite almost not present in a tank for a long duration, then suddenly gets infected with loads of the parasite, the fish are more likely to get the parasite, because it hasn't had to fight the parasite much in a long while.

Paul, your activities of frequently adding other life forms and stuff from the natural ocean may have created an environment in which the fish are well suited to fight ick and other parasites because it's common for them to be introduced to small amounts of it....

 

[srusso]

So... For a "ick free" tank one in theory needs both healthy fish and "some" exposure to the parasite. As to not become weak....

 

[discocarp]

No, for an ich free tank you just have to treat every fish (copper, hypo, or transfer) and quarantine every invert long enough for the ich to die off (8ish weeks). That is not in dispute. That also doesn't mean fish can't become resistant because some clearly do. But if you don't want to gamble, there is a proven route to an ich free tank.

 

[Paul B]

And I think it has zero relationship to ich, other than it got you thinking along similar lines for ich

I agree to that and we are not all excited that this trial is going on, but we are happy that anything is going on in respect to MS research. But it did get me thinking about the people in Viet Nam and Mexico who are exposed to paracites every day and Americans, who live in cleaner, paracite free societies get it almost as soon as we are exposed.
I feel ich works the same way and as you said, I do add all sorts of things from the sea every week. The water, rocks, creatures and seaweeds I add most likely contain diseases including paracites and maybe these additions help to boost the immune system of the fish or maybe the warmer water of my reef weakens the local cold water paracites of NY water to an extent that it keeps an immunity going in my fish. Of course this is a totally un-scientific theory but I have no other way to explain why my fish "never" get ich unles they are dying from something else like old age or an injury like jumping out or being bit by something much larger.
As you know there are two schools of thought on ich, one is to quarantine everything and I would imagine that could work. The other is to keep the fish in a state of health where they don't get ich, a combination of both may also work.
The only problem I have with quarantining is that if a paracite does happen to get through, the fish have no immunity to it and will most likely be heavily infected. In my reef, if something happens like the water gets to hot or cold, something to lower their immune system they may show ich, but as soon as I correct the situation, it disappears and I have never lost a fish to ich in over 30 years even though I add all sorts of things.
This is not a thread downgrading quarantining, on the contrary, I am trying to find out why some tanks just don't get it even though they are obviousely exposed. Instead of trying to cure it, I want to know why it doesn't happen in the first place in spite of all the information about it's life cycle which means nothing if we know how to prevent it's killing our fish.
It is mostly in new systems and rarely affects 10 year old systems.
I can't quarantine because of all the NSW and food I add from the sea. I feel this stuff is much more important than worrying about introducing a disease that has not happened in 3 decades of adding this stuff every week.
I have had fish die from what I perceive is old age but there is no way to tell.
This pair of watchman gobies were in my reef for 12 years where they produced many broods of eggs. They they started to slow down, hide more and eventually just died a few weeks apart. No disease, no jumping out, just slowed down and died, I feel that was old age but I could be wrong as I don't know the lifespan of watchman gobies.
Also these hermit crabs were about 13 years old when they died. Again, how long do hermit crabs live?
This fireclown is 18 and is still spawning while showing no signs of old age except a slight discoloration under his eyes that I have noticed before in old clowns.

With her eggs

 

[discocarp]

As you know there are two schools of thought on ich, one is to quarantine everything and I would imagine that could work. The other is to keep the fish in a state of health where they don't get ich, a combination of both may also work.

The only problem I have with quarantining is that if a paracite does happen to get through, the fish have no immunity to it and will most likely be heavily infected. In my reef, if something happens like the water gets to hot or cold, something to lower their immune system they may show ich, but as soon as I correct the situation, it disappears and I have never lost a fish to ich in over 30 years even though I add all sorts of things.

There is just no question that proper quarantine and treatment can keep a tank completely ich free. And I am not shy in practicing and advocating that path in most (but not all) cases. But you are absolutely right that you have to q-tank everything because a single mistake and all your work is undone.

You are also absolutely right that many fish seem to be able to build up a resistance to ich. It does not appear to be immunity, but seems to hang around at a subclinical level. And, as you noted, if your fish do have it at this subclinical level, stress can exacerbate the problem (and vice versa removing the stress can help beat the ich back down).

I used to do a lot of collecting too (not so much anymore). I would still q-tank a lot of that stuff for 2 months then move it over to the main tank. The only exception was when I kept seahorses that needed live food (of course ich is VERY rarely a problem with them).

 

[billsreef]

Cryptocaryon irritans has been very well researched and understood via good solid scientific research. Kind of leaves me wondering why people keep going on with pet theories based on "feelings"

 

[Paul B]

Cryptocaryon irritans has been very well researched and understood via good solid scientific research. Kind of leaves me wondering why people keep going on with pet theories based on "feelings"

Hey Bill, How are you doing?

I think I can answer that thing about solid scientific research. Most, if not all scientists don't have reef tanks. Marine biology does not qualify someone to keep a reef tank although it may help. I have a cousin who is a marine biology professor and for that title he had to SCUBA dive exactly once for 20 minutes or so. He has never even kept a goldfish much less a reef tank but by definition, he is an expert on them.
Ich and cryptocaryn has been studied in labs in regard to food fish, not ornamental captive fish and what occurs in a laboratory setting in the 30 or so days that a study takes place has little or no bearing on a reef tank.
Science dictates that my reef should not exist. I use a reverse UG filter, no quarantine and add cold water creatures along with bacteria almost every week. Just ten minutes ago I added amphipods right from the sea.
This is about ich, many tanks are not bothered by it for many years and I want to know why not.
Obviousely ich does not kill every fish that is exposed to it, why not?
Why is it more prevelent in a brand new tank with all new water?
Why does it appear with stress?
Why can some fish live 20 years after being exposed to ich dozens or hundreds of times and not be affected?
Forget that time bomb thing, it carries no weight, tanks that don't get ich probably never get ich, why?
A few years ago I posted on here for anyone to put an ich infected fish in my reef to see what would happen, no one came forward but that is how sure I am that ich will not harm my fish.
I am sure the water I add very often contains ich, why wouldn't it?
I am sure the 4 fish I added last week were carrying ich, why wouldn't they?
So there are a lot of "Whys" and "I don't know's" here. Why?
We think we know everything about ich but obviousely we don't.:fun5:

I did not start this thread to belittle people who quarantine, I used to quarantine myself. I started this thread because of my love for this hobby and the animals we keep. I obviousely love it being I have been keeping fish for almost 60 years. I have never lived even one day of my life without a tank of some type. Well I guess when I was 3 years old I don't remember if I had a tank or not but you know what I mean.:lol2:
So any more theories, Ideas, premonitions or suppositions? :wavehand: