Thrive or Survive

[snorvich]

I see a fair number of threads where people introduce fish into environments where the best that can be hoped for is medium term (six months to a year) survival. Personally, I feel that fish should have a chance for long term thriving (years not months). What is everyone else's viewpoint? Or is this too controversial? :hmm2:

 

[bradleyj]

I'm not quite sure I know what you mean Steve. I would think that most people would want to give these fish we have the opportunity to live the rest of their long lifes in our worlds we build for them. I know many people buy fish before they learn how to care for them. But I would hope to think they want to provide them with the best care possible.
This is why I continually come back here. To always strive to learn, and try to help others when I can.
People like you help many with your knowledge and expertice.
I would hope others would find this very valuable to them as well.

 

[fishyheaven]

i hope for all my fish to be with my for at least 5+ years, i might take a chance for a harder to care for fish but i would still try to create an environment where it can last for years plus.

 

[snorvich]

I was hoping that the vast majority of people feel like the above two posters.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

This very topic has crossed my mind MANY MANY times. I see it slightly differently, as instead- how do aquarists define "success". I have seen both extremes. Some claiming such in honestly weeks, whereas others in numerous years. Some by breeding success, other by getting the animal to eat.

IMHO, and IMHO ONLY(!!!), I think no animals should be acquired without considering the duration of ownership, growth, dietary considerations, amongst other things. A close second to horrific things for me to hear (second to only calling clownfish and Hippo tangs "nemo" and "dory") is hearing the absurd and comical phrase (upgrade planned", or "bigger tank in the works". I cannot understand why someone would buy fish, particularly commonly available fish, in such a rush, apparently KNOWING they are not suited to house them currently. Acanthurus tangs, Pomacanthus Maso tangs, etc are purchased, and all too often, the purchaser says, "I know I need a bigger tank. I'll ahve one in the next year or two". Really? I doubt it. And why not wait until you get the bigger tank? Are Nasos not going to be available then?

I know Im micro-critiquing, but its one of my pet peeves. Aquarist should not only plan keeping their livestock for years on teh whole, but also should be prepared for every aspect of the livestock BEFORE they arrive. IMHO.

 

[Beaun]

I feel like the majority of under-educated aquarists out there are looking for surviving and not thinking about the thriving of their fish. I also agree with the "upgrading soon" problem that j pointed out, why not wait till you can properly house something, and if you cant, then you cant.

 

[HndMafia]

Good thread topic Steve!

My 12 year old and I often have conversations about why we don't acquire this fish or that invert. I'm appalled at the flippant attitude towards aquatic pets many people seem to have towards their lifespan and comfort.

BTW, my measure of success with a marine organism is in years, preferably with spawning occurring while in my care.

 

[jnc914]

This very topic has crossed my mind MANY MANY times. I see it slightly differently, as instead- how do aquarists define "success". I have seen both extremes. Some claiming such in honestly weeks, whereas others in numerous years. Some by breeding success, other by getting the animal to eat.

IMHO, and IMHO ONLY(!!!), I think no animals should be acquired without considering the duration of ownership, growth, dietary considerations, amongst other things. A close second to horrific things for me to hear (second to only calling clownfish and Hippo tangs "nemo" and "dory") is hearing the absurd and comical phrase (upgrade planned", or "bigger tank in the works". I cannot understand why someone would buy fish, particularly commonly available fish, in such a rush, apparently KNOWING they are not suited to house them currently. Acanthurus tangs, Pomacanthus Maso tangs, etc are purchased, and all too often, the purchaser says, "I know I need a bigger tank. I'll ahve one in the next year or two". Really? I doubt it. And why not wait until you get the bigger tank? Are Nasos not going to be available then?

I know Im micro-critiquing, but its one of my pet peeves. Aquarist should not only plan keeping their livestock for years on teh whole, but also should be prepared for every aspect of the livestock BEFORE they arrive. IMHO.

+1 :thumbsup:

I think there are two differing camps on these boards. First is the more experienced fish keepers who have learned through trial and error to think in the long term and have the forethought in how and what they need to do to have their fish thrive. The second are the newer, less experienced fish keepers that want something pricey, flashy, unique, etc. in the short term in order to impress. At one time, when I first started in the hobby, I admit I was the latter. Through the years (9 years and still learning) I have done meticulous research on all the fish I currently own prior to acquiring them. What I find disheartening is when you try to help the less experienced fish keepers and try to steer them from disaster, you are often times regarded as an "elitist fish snob" and generally your advice or criticism is disregarded. I have learned rather quickly that people will do as they want, no matter how many times they are told its not a good idea.

 

[LisaD]

I also agree with the "upgrading soon" problem that j pointed out, why not wait till you can properly house something, and if you cant, then you cant.

I agree with the posts about looking to provide conditions for fish to thrive. However, I honestly have bought juvenile fish and grown them up for a larger tank or upgrade. My 2" rabbit fish was in a 55 for at least a year or two. When it was 4", it went into the 210.

 

[snorvich]

I tend to feel as jnc914 and jmaneyapanda do. However I do understand why people buy fish they find appealing even though they don't really have the home to allow them to thrive. Sometimes it is ignorance, sometimes it is stubbornness. I was recently offered the opportunity to acquire a fish that I find very appealing but KNOW I cannot care for properly. I sadly passed it up. When someone buys a fish assuming a tank upgrade, it tends to sadden me. I feel we have an obligation to our animals to give them a life that is a reasonable one.

 

[stubby 58]

I know I am new here and have only had salt tanks for a yr or so . I have a 55 and a 58 up , working on a 90 . I know what you are talking about , I am new to salt but not new to keeping fish . I had FW tanks and had large cichlids and other large FW fish live for many years . Made a major move was forced to sell tanks . Our first house after the move here was not big enough for a tank , bought our current home a 1 1/2 yr ago now have room for more than the wife will let me have . Have had a 10 yr gap in the hobby might say (addiction) man have things changed . I think I am rambling , to the point a lot of ppl impulse buy and do not know what their new pet requires then six mo later they do not know what to do , for those ppl it is great that there is a place like this and ppl with the experience to help . I apologize for such a long post and my rambling .
stubby

 

[IFbettas]

I, too, am disheartened when brand new aquarists just "have" to get a certain fish even if there is little or no chance of the fish surviving. For example, dragonets often fall victim to the new aquarist. Even though we can tell them their tank isn't mature enough for one to survive, they assume that they will be the "one" who happens to get theirs to live.

The key to achieving success with a particular species (in years) is to read, read, and read IMO. If all new aquarists were to read more about the different fish and their care there would be a lot less fish dieing in their tanks.

Also, I will not get a fish unless I am positive I can care for it for many years. That's the reason why I don't have the choati leopard wrasse I want to get really badly. It can be hard to resist the temptation to get a certain fish, but in the end is it about your happiness or the fish's well-being?

 

[suta4242]

I, too, am disheartened when brand new aquarists just "have" to get a certain fish even if there is little or no chance of the fish surviving.

Actually, I'm not disheartened when new hobbyists do this. I almost expect it. But I'm really saddened when experienced hobbyists do it and then go on to justify it.

I also don't understand how some hobbyists succeed in keeping demanding corals, but only manage to keep their fish for x months. Lets face it, if you can keep a thriving acro tank and understand the needs of the coral, how much harder is it to try & understand the long term needs of the fish? Sometimes, it seems the fish is only there to 'complete the picture' the aquarist has imagined of an ideal tank.

 

[SMOOTHIE]

I have a shelf in the freezer on different frozen foods and a shelf of different dry foods for them to get different meals everyday. Love them more than I do my coral honestly.
People can compensate for the bioload good may create accordingly. Frequent small water changes, better skimmer, larger fuge, but the best advice is to start out with a healthy fish and PLEASE ACCLIMATE PROPERLY.
Compatability with current inhabitants is very important too along with diet demand

 

[IFbettas]

Actually, I'm not disheartened when new hobbyists do this. I almost expect it.

In my mind, that is a problem. That is, that many new aquarists first kill a lot of fish before they learn which ones can and can't be kept successfully. Many of their problems could be completely avoided by taking the advice of the more experienced aquarists on the various forums.

Also, it is not as it was many years ago when information about caring for marine fish was scarce. Nowadays, anyone with access to the internet has unlimited resources at their fingertips.

 

[Elysia]

IMHO, and IMHO ONLY(!!!), I think no animals should be acquired without considering the duration of ownership, growth, dietary considerations, amongst other things.

Indeed -- no living thing, whether fish, cat, dog, lizard, hamster, child -- should be "acquired" without consideration to the that living being's well being.

How should one define success?

 

[snorvich]

How should one define success?

I think "success" is different for each of us. For me, "minimum" success is multiple years for a fish. I would hope to provide a lifespan that is comparable to what the fish would have in the wild.

Does anyone have a "guideline" for best practices?

 

[Big E]

For 90% of the fish available in the hobby the MINIMUM goal should be 10 years. For fish like Angels, Tangs, Clownfish, Groupers, Damsels, Psuedos you should expect 20-25 years. I'm basing this off my own personal experiences & what I know is possible with proper care.

The tank not big enough issue is tough to quantify, because there are a lot of gray areas about what is suitable for a particular species & how large captive fish actually get compared to in the wild. Obviously, grossly under sizing a living environment won't work long term & I think most people realize this.

I'm more appalled by people not QTing fish properly or not at all...............the excuses why they don't do it are even more disturbing. This is the number one way to kill a healthy display tank..........forget the 10 year goal if this isn't done. I have no sympathy for someone that posts about how their 2 year old fish died from "X" disease. The disease didn't kill the fish YOU did, by introducing the disease into the display tank!

Overstocking is another problem that is abused. This is another one of those gray areas about what is right, but I believe this is a big issue that people ignore.

Improper tankmates causing stress is high on the list of causes of early deaths. Timid fish aren't going to live years with aggressive tankmates. The livestock has to be compatible.......this is constantly abused.

You can do everything right above, but if you don't have a back up power plan in place when electricity goes out all your work & care goes to waste. Again, like the QT thing, I have no sympathy for someone that isn't prepared for this. It will happen, it's just a matter of when.

 

[Big E]

One last thing........be patient.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

For 90% of the fish available in the hobby the MINIMUM goal should be 10 years. For fish like Angels, Tangs, Clownfish, Groupers, Damsels, Psuedos you should expect 20-25 years. I'm basing this off my own personal experiences & what I know is possible with proper care.

The tank not big enough issue is tough to quantify, because there are a lot of gray areas about what is suitable for a particular species & how large captive fish actually get compared to in the wild. Obviously, grossly under sizing a living environment won't work long term & I think most people realize this.

I'm more appalled by people not QTing fish properly or not at all...............the excuses why they don't do it are even more disturbing. This is the number one way to kill a healthy display tank..........forget the 10 year goal if this isn't done. I have no sympathy for someone that posts about how their 2 year old fish died from "X" disease. The disease didn't kill the fish YOU did, by introducing the disease into the display tank!

Overstocking is another problem that is abused. This is another one of those gray areas about what is right, but I believe this is a big issue that people ignore.

Improper tankmates causing stress is high on the list of causes of early deaths. Timid fish aren't going to live years with aggressive tankmates. The livestock has to be compatible.......this is constantly abused.

You can do everything right above, but if you don't have a back up power plan in place when electricity goes out all your work & care goes to waste. Again, like the QT thing, I have no sympathy for someone that isn't prepared for this. It will happen, it's just a matter of when.

I cant agree with your comment on QT more. I am sometimes disgusted with some people views of QT, both beginners, but sadly, sometimes experienced too. QT serves so many positive pruposes, and can and should be quite comfortable and safe for new fish.

In regards to the power outage situation, there is SO much more to this than you could know (IMO). All I can say is that everyone should check their failsafes before every notable storm. Failsafes fail, as do their backups, and their backups, etc.

Sadly, there is nothing we can do to prevent EVERY loss. But I think the important issue is that we CONSIDER all scenarios. If we are aware, and seriously think about them, and how to beat them, that is thinking in the proper context, IMHO.