To quarantine or not to quarantine, that is the question...

To quarantine or not to quarantine, that is the question...

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 38.8%
  • No

    Votes: 30 61.2%

  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .
Wow, a good read for sure.

I gota be honest and go with the other criminals,admitting I dont quarantine new fish.Recent reality check with adding corals and live rock,no possible way I will add something again without carful inspection and quarantine period.

Some other thoughts I cant help ask or throw out here.

I'd have to look it back up but as I think I remember it in Spotte's CSF ,copper was thought to do more harm than good.The author points to damage to the fishes liver ,kideys and awhole host of otherthings ailing.I believe he further states that its use should be considered a toxin rather than a remedy.Goes on to how copper has an affinity for carbonate and that it quickly depletes from solution making dosing guess work.

The other thing (and Im probably wrong) pertains more to bacterial or seconary infections is that fish tend to scrape or scratch themselves when infected by ick and other parasitic forms.It sorta makes more sense to me in that a quarantine tank shouldn't have sharp-ish things like liverock and sediment whitch would or could lead to secondary infections aside from it making copper dosage much more unpredictable..I dont know but thats how I rememeber it.



Free copper Cu is toxic to marine life including invertebrates and even fish at levels higher than therapuetic levels,. Fortunately, most of the copper that comes into our tanks with foods or salt mixes is bound to organics or quickly becomes so and as such doesn't pass through cell walls easily if at all. Very small amounts of free copper in parts per billion can wipe out corals and other invertebrates quickly.

Free copper will adhere to live rock , substrate and other calcium carbonate surfaces making the maintenance of a therapuetic level diffiucult without frequent testing. Further these materials will hold the copper and leach it back overtime ending their suitability for use in a reef tank unless they are partially dissolved with an acid bath.
Copper meds available today come in different forms. Some are free Cu+6
straight up, such as copper sulfate meds . These require careful testing to maintian a therapuetic level. There are others like Cupramine which provide copper that is bound to orgaincs(probably amines) which dissolve to certain levels of equilibirum ,ie, releasing free copper at a rate to maintain a therapuetic dose consistently.
Some fish, are beleived to be particularly sensitive to copper treatment. Chronic exposure to copper can cause damage to internal organs which is another argument against not maintaining tanks with copper for long periods of time.

Nevertheless, a 14 day treatment at therapuetic levels has been very effective against ich and velvet , ime, with no discernible ill effects to the variety of fish I've treated this way. I use a treatment tank with some pvc for resting places and pre seeded sponge filters for nitrification. Fro wrasse, I add a container of sand for them to sleep in.

Hyposalinity is a usually viable alternative for ich treatment but it takes much longer often 6 weeks or more and in some cases is not effective depending on the strain of ich. Prolonged exposure means the fish don't use their kidneys or flush them for long periods of time which can be harmful.
It works on the weakness of the free swimming stage of the parasite in that the theront is isotonic(it's internal sg matches the water around it) It can't osmoregulate like a fish can. It absorbs fluids that diffuse into it from the the lower sg water and can't maintain homeostasis. The same is true for all invertebrates. Fish have an internal salinity, just as we do. Marine fish are hypotonic;their internal sg is around 1.008 ,much lower than the surrounding water in which they live, typically 1.026. They maintain the 1.008 internally by copious drinking and expelling concentrated urine. They can not maitain homestasis if the surounding water is lower than their internal sg. This is why 1.009 is the lower limit for hypo treatments and it may not be lethal to all strains of ich or cysts in a reasonable time frame.

A very nice way to treat ich is tank transfer. This requires transferring the fish every 3 days to a uninfected tank for atotal of 4 transfers. this will ensure all the parasites in the fish (trpophonts) will be left in the vacant tank and no new ones will have time to hatch. Nice and natural but labor intensive.Each tank and equipment used in it needs to be completely dried before reuse or soaked in fresh water overnight. Still it's hard to debate the elegance and natural efficacy of this technique.

The ich itself creates lots of open wounds and weakens the fish so secondary bacterial and/or dinoflagellate infections have plenty off ferile ground even if they don't cut themselves.
 
Tom, I run UV when I'm treating only. Not in my main system. I think a balanced flora is part of a healthy tank.
I use hyposalinity, not to treat the infection, but to reduce the stress on the fish. If you have a fish that is sick (working hard to breath, feeding poorly) going from 1023 to 1018 can make it feel much better. Then I drop more slowly (over a day to 1015) from there I go even more slowly and stay in the range of 1012-1015. Going back up, you must be slow the whole way.
Obviously I'm talking about a fish taken out of the display tank. If i want the tank "clean" obviously I need to take all the fish out, and leave the tank "fishless" for awile.
BTW tonight the tangs looked better then yesterday. Will see. They were quit infected with the ich, and as you articulated so well, runs in cycles.
MK
 
That's very true Mark. There have been studies that show fish use less energy in low sg . As you, long term I prefer to keep them in sg they have evolved to,ie around 1.026 though.
.You can take sg down as fast as you please with no ill effect as long as you don't go below the fish's internal sg (ie no lower than 1.009). I begin all acclimation of new fish in qt at around 1.014 .

(Willistein. I hope the following answers your questions on acclimation and initial treatments.)

This lower sg is particularly helpful in acclimating new fish that have been confined to bag water for a period of time . Typically fish are shipped in water of lower sg around 1.015 to 1.018 so as long as I go lower I'm fine without drip acclimation and then I can slowly raise it .001 per day to prepare them for transfer to the display 1.026.

Getting shipped fish out of the bag water once it is opened is important to prevent exposure to ammonia toxicity.

CO2 builds up in the stale bag water lowering the ph. Ammonia builds up in the bag water too. At the lower ph ,the ammonia in the bag shifts(speciates)mostly to NH4 (the minimally toxic ammonium) due to the extra H at the lower ph.
When the bag is opened and exposed to fresh air ,the CO2 blows off( equilibrates with the air), the ph rises and the ammonia shifts from NH4(ammonium) to the more toxic NH3(ammonia) .

When I get a new fish, I try to match the temp of the qt tank to the bag water by touch without opening the bag. I then float the unopened bag for 15 to 30 minutes to acclimate temperature further. If the qt tank water started out cold to match the bag water, the heater will raise it slowly after the fish is in the tank. Next I open the bag and drain almost all the water into a bucket for disposal and slide the fish into the 1.014/5 water in the qt tank with lights off.

After several hours , I'll draw off some of the qt tank water and prepare a formalin bath in a two gallon bucket with about a gallon of water , a small powerhead and the appropriate dose of formalin 3); place the fish in it for 40 minutes and then return it to the qt tank.
The next day I'll add cupramine( a copper treatment) for the 14 day treatment. Then prazi pro for the treatment period for that med which I can't recall of the top of my head. I think it's about 7 days.I've used copper and prazi pro concurrently without ill effect but prefer to dose them separately, unless I spot flukes during the copper dose . In which case another formalin bath and the addition of prazi pro along with the copper is done.
Then a week or two of observation and slowly raising the salinity before placement in the display.

That's the process I use.There are many variations employed by successful fishkeepers and you need to select a process that works for you. I'm seriously thinking of going to the tank transfer method when I get a new fish. I haven't purchased a fish in over a year . I have not had any losses in over two years and no outbreaks.
 
Tom, thanks for the details of your methodology. Very much appreciated. To treat for ich, I thought it was necessary to get down to 1.010-1.013, but apparently not?
 
If you are using hyposalinity as a treatment ,it is useful to get as low as you can without dipping below 1.009. This takes careful and accurate sg measurement. When using copper or tank treatment hypo is not needed.
 
Yep, I used a calibrated refractometer to verify 1.011. For now I'm not using copper, but I may after the Prazipro course is done if he looks like he has any second degree infections. He's not too happy to be in the 15 gallon tank, but he has hiding places, good flow and is eating. I will be changing water out every day to keep the water clean.
 
Good luck with him. I''l be off the boards for a few days as I have to travel to Baltimore. My mother in law has passed.
 
Tom, hope all is well - sorry to hear about your MIL.

So the yellow tang seems to be doing much better now. Now I must exercise patience. His flukes are gone, but I need to wait out the crypto, probably for another 6 weeks... ugh.
 
Thanks for the nice words folks. Just got back ,nasty snow on 20A Headed out to my grandson's 14th birthday party.
 
Every time I did not QT I had wished I had. Once those buggers go in, they are in, and its one HUGE pita to go get them out.

Just with cycling up a new tank, it takes patience.
 
Just with cycling up a new tank, it takes patience
Ugh! No kidding! My two in QT have a couple more weeks to go and I am having a very hard time keeping them there. They are eating great and the wrasse has become more comfortable and they're haven't been any signs of disease, but I know two weeks isn't long enough.

Sigh. I can do it!
 
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