vinegar dosing

Randy,last question & I promise.
Is it good to use a filter sock to trap the sediment in the o/f water. I understand it's good when growing hard corals but and may be detrimental for soft corals and mushrooms, but in the short term when trying to get rid of cyano, it clean water the goal?
Jim
 
I don't filter out particulates, and I am not certain whether it would have any impact on cyano, but it is very unlikely to make it worse and could possibly help.
 
I don't think there is a great hypothesis for why carbon dosing would feed bacteria, but not cyano bacteria. This is because cyano can likely utilize many of the same carbon sources, in the same forms as the bacteria your trying to culture.

Why would it? Cyano is autorophic; it makes it's own organic carbon via photosynthesis and can fix it's own nitrogen too which leads to phosphate reduction as a first reach for control. Typically it dies in the dark even if organic carbon is present.
Denitrifying bacteria are heterotorphic, they need the organic carbon. The bacteria and their enzymes might ,however, provide by products useful to the cyano particularly with inconsistent dosing inadequate export via skimming, gac,etc.
 
Tom, I'll increase the feeding and stop the vinegar dosing untilI can clean up the sand bed

Jim, I'd stop the Phytochrom feeding or cut it back as well.

Stick with it . You'll win eventually.
 
Tom, I just fed Phytochrom (daily) but will cut back. I just started with this
plankton feeding last week and have noticed an improvementin the corals.
I stopped the vinegar dosing.
Thanks for your help, Jim
 
I don't think there is a great hypothesis for why carbon dosing would feed bacteria, but not cyano bacteria. This is because cyano can likely utilize many of the same carbon sources, in the same forms as the bacteria your trying to culture.

Why would it? Cyano is autorophic; it makes it's own organic carbon via photosynthesis and can fix it's own nitrogen too which leads to phosphate reduction as a first reach for control. Typically it dies in the dark even if organic carbon is present.
Denitrifying bacteria are heterotorphic, they need the organic carbon. The bacteria and their enzymes might ,however, provide by products useful to the cyano particularly with inconsistent dosing inadequate export via skimming, gac,etc.

Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understand what your saying. I know cyano is primarily photoautorophic and can fix CO2 and nitrogen, however, it is often capable of various modes, including heterotrophy, or at least mixed photoheterotrophy. So, I'm pretty certain it can metabolize organic carbon :) So, it may not need organic carbon, but why wouldn't it benefit from it? I certainly agree on the GFO part though. Although, I also remember that it can use phosphate very efficiently, stockpile a significant amount and sort of recycle phosphate with other bacteria. So, you may not be able to kill off what is there by reducing phosphate, but should be able to imit further growth. That's why I recommended siphoning, flow and wet-skimming as well.
 
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Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understand what your saying. I know cyano is primarily photoautorophic and can fix CO2 and nitrogen, however, it is often capable of various modes, including heterotrophy, or at least mixed photoheterotropy. So, I'm pretty certain it can metabolize organic carbon So, it may not need organic carbon, but why wouldn't it benefit from it?


It might use some as other photosynthetic organisms do.

I personally don't know of any documented heterotrophic modes for cyano but would be interested in learning about them if you or others have information to share.

Just don't see why it would metabolize much if any C . At least not to the degree heterotrophic bacteria will. The heterotrophs when provided an organic carbon source will compete for phosphate and nitrogen depriving the cyano of it which should offset any benefit cyano may or may not get from the extra C.
I raised the same argument you make several years ago but have since favored bacterial by products as a more likely explanation in some carbon dosing applications where cyano pops up.
There are many strains of cyano and I'm sure much is unknown about how they operate in our tanks but I can say ,fwiw. that after over 2 years of daily dosing vodka and vinegar ,there is no visible cyano in the heavily fed system except a small patch where some chaeto in one fuge is waning and likely feeding it.If the cyano benefits from the organic C dosing , the gallons of vodka and vinegar I've dosed haven't shown it . Before carbon dosing moderate amounts of visible cyano was a frequent visitor to certain areas in the system.
 
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understand what your saying. I know cyano is primarily photoautorophic and can fix CO2 and nitrogen, however, it is often capable of various modes, including heterotrophy, or at least mixed photoheterotropy. So, I'm pretty certain it can metabolize organic carbon So, it may not need organic carbon, but why wouldn't it benefit from it?


It might use some as other photosynthetic organisms do.

I personally don't know of any documented heterotrophic modes for cyano but would be interested in learning about them if you or others have information to share.

Just don't see why it would metabolize much if any C . At least not to the degree heterotrophic bacteria will. The heterotrophs when provided an organic carbon source will compete for phosphate and nitrogen depriving the cyano of it which should offset any benefit cyano may or may not get from the extra C.
I raised the same argument you make several years ago but have since favored bacterial by products as a more likely explanation in some carbon dosing applications where cyano pops up.
There are many strains of cyano and I'm sure much is unknown about how they operate in our tanks but I can say ,fwiw. that after over 2 years of daily dosing vodka and vinegar ,there is no visible cyano in the heavily fed system except a small patch where some chaeto in one fuge is waning and likely feeding it.If the cyano benefits from the organic C dosing , the gallons of vodka and vinegar I've dosed haven't shown it . Before carbon dosing moderate amounts of visible cyano was a frequent visitor to certain areas in the system.

I doubt it would need to metabolize as much C as a purely heterotrophic bacteria, when in autotrophic mode. However, I'd guess C could still drive it's growth. Also, I'd think mutualism with bacterial populations, would likely also drive a lot of cyano growth when carbon dosing. So, either way, I think there are plausible biological hypotheses for why carbon dosing could drive cyano. And I don't think these hypotheses would necessarily be mutually exclusive.

One good paper is Mannan and Pakrasi 1993. "Dark Heterotrophic Growth Conditions Result in an Increase in the Content of Photosystem II Units in the Filamentous Cyanobacterium Anabaena variabilis ATCC 29413"

I know there are others, IIRC, even some more recent genome studies looking at heterotrophic ability of cyano strains. It's been a while though, so I don't have them handy, but this should point towards some.

As for Mannan and Pakrasi, they looked at the cyanobacteria Anabaena variabilis ATCC 2941 and found it could grow in dark heterotrophic conditions, just as efficiently as in photoautotrophic conditions. There were some cellular changes, such as a change in PSI to PSII ratio, however, it maintained its ability to photosynthesize even after months of darkness.

So, I could hypothesize, that maybe carbon dosing could drive cyano bacteria growth in the shaded areas of the tank. Also, I would think it's growth in this situation, could still likely be enhanced by its mutualistic relationship with heteratrophic bacteria, so, this would help it survive the low nutrient levels. So this may make it very tough to eliminate. People may siphon out cyano where they see it, but who is siphoning their overflows for example? And that cyano, then may be fully capable of moving back to the display and regaining it autotrophic capabilities as conditions allow.

Of course I'm speculating, but it seems fairly plausible based on what I know anyways. One thing I don't know is exactly what types of cyano are found in our aquariums and what their specific capabilities are. It's interesting though, if cyano wasn't such a pest, I think I would really be more fascinated by it. It has to be one of the most adaptive organisms on the planet :) For us though, as a result, it's a serious PITA :lol:
 
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Thanks for the information.
I think cyanobacteria is a wonderful thing particulary in it's nitrogen fixing capability but it doesn't look real good in a reef tank.
It seems to be less of a problem with some vinegar,acetic . Perhaps the mutalistic relationship is less so at the level of anaerobic disgestion involving acetic acid than say with glucose or polymers.FWIW, when dosing vodka and vinegar if I dose enough to keep the PO4 and NO3 very low consistently the cyano vanishes.
 
Sure, no problem. I've learned a lot from this forum always nice if I can also contribute something lol.

I guess the cyano is an effective nutrient scavenger. I think a lot of people are afraid of toxins, but most of these species IIRC are more freshwater species. Except maybe for some allelopathic chemicals to deter predation.
Some people say you could loose some snails, not sure how much truth there is there. I do have snails die when I have cyano, but also when I don't. And I'll have to keep the vodka/vinegar thing in mind :)


although, I think I like diatoms for nutrient reduction myself, as they can directly or indirectly feed more desirable livestock :)
 
There are some indications that carbon dosing( ie vinegar ,vodka etc) may add to the fundmental foodweb via bacterial growth and predation by other organisms.

This thread and the article noted in it may be of interest
 
Good thread everyone.

I thought I would add in my 0.02c. If you look at the hypothesis of microbial loops, you find a correlation of organic molecules and the amount of biodiversity the water can support. Dissolved organics can be consumed by cyanobacteria and phytoplankton which theoretically can be further consumed by ciliates, zooplankton, and eventually fish. Adding vinegar is essentially the low step in this loop. As the molecule is either used for fuel or for building blocks it becomes entwined in this complex model. As some of these assembled molecules are released back into the water they can be skimmed off. This is why it is essential to have a good skimmer as it removes these more complex molecules and possibly bacteria themselves.

As mentioned cyanobacteria can utilize dissolved organics, posing a potential problem as cyano mats are found to a nuisance. As Randy stated, it may be best then to focus on phosphate elimination by GFO since cyano can fixate nitrogen.
 
There are some indications that carbon dosing( ie vinegar ,vodka etc) may add to the fundmental foodweb via bacterial growth and predation by other organisms.

This thread and the article noted in it may be of interest

Yeah, that makes sense, I'd think a lot of corals even, could consume some of the free floating bacteria.
 
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Not just the corals but perhaps other bacteria predators like filter feeders, forminaferins and other protoists which can boost the overall food chain.
 
concerning vinegar dosing which type of vinegar do you guys dose, the red (apple) vinegar or the white one?


also what is the dosing ratio between vodka and vinegar? if I dose 1ml/day of vodka how much of vinegar should I dose?
 
The white distilled vinegar is better, as it is the closest to acetic acid and water. The red vinegars will have other, more complicated chemicals involved. The white vinegar is safer.
 
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