vinegar dosing
- Thread starter biecacka
- Start date
I do not prefer to dose any organic carbon source at night when O2 is lower, because it lowers O2 more, and so mixing it with limewater that is dosed at night or 24/7 is not optimal, IMO, despite other advantages, such as dissolving more lime into the limewater.
Yogre
Cheesehead Reefer
If you dose 1 ml of vodka you will need to dose 8 ml of vinegar to provide the same amount of carbon to your system.
There is no known optimal proportion of vokda /vinegar; nor a one size fits all tank dose. Some use more of one than the other depending on the idiosyncracies of the tank and the doser.
80proof vodka is 60% water/40% ethanol;white vinegar is 95% water/05% acetic acid. So due to the differnces in dilution it takes 8x as much vinegar to approximately equal 1 ml of vodka in terms of organic carbon content.
Personally, fwiw, I dose 18ml vokda and 64 ml vinegar in the am just after lights on and then another 8ml of vodka at night for the 550gallon system.. Dosing is to a high flow area of the sump.
80proof vodka is 60% water/40% ethanol;white vinegar is 95% water/05% acetic acid. So due to the differnces in dilution it takes 8x as much vinegar to approximately equal 1 ml of vodka in terms of organic carbon content.
Personally, fwiw, I dose 18ml vokda and 64 ml vinegar in the am just after lights on and then another 8ml of vodka at night for the 550gallon system.. Dosing is to a high flow area of the sump.
Second that observation. I've seen fleshy lps and the rbta( entmacea qudricolor) darken when using sugar in particular. The vodka and vinegar levels I use are moderate I've not seen it with those. Anecdotaly. the rbta has appeared very healthy for the past 2 years of carbon dosing but it has not split. It used to split frequently before.
I believe that observation as well. Although, in my case, it's because when I tried dosing sugar directly, a number of my corals and even clams, started expelling their zoox. So, I would guess maybe the zoox started growing too fast and the hosts lost control. The thing is, it was a seemingly tiny amount of sugar too :eek1: I think that is another reason the particular source may be important. Some may be too efficient.
jcw
Active member
For the new to reefkeeping people like me, I just want to say not to be too afraid of all this brainpower being displayed on this thread.My tank after initial cycle but before any fish was a nitrate tanker >80 (API) at one point (and probably phosphate). Hair algae was about to fill the refugium along with a healthy ball of chaeto.
I had a feeling the rock I took from a crashed tank (more than 10 years ago) may have been leaching these "nutrients." (Although I've read articles that this may or may not even be possible at reef tank ph's)
Anyway, I first started dosing with vodka. 0.5 up to 1.0cc. Then I added vinegar 3cc. HA after about 3 weeks completely wiped out of the tank (I didn't even physically remove it). Chaeto still present but doesn't double in a couple weeks like before. Nitrates are 0 on API. I still wonder what my phosphates are (my LFS only carries API and I'd like to get a more accurate low range test).
I added 5 fish (3 chromis, 1 small wrasse and a bellus angelfish) and for the first week fed like mad. Still no nitrates, nitrites or ammonia. I've since stopped dosing vinegar, slowed down the skimming, hoping not to strip the tank of everything. With 1 cc of vodka daily, the tank is nitrate and HA-free and hopefully I won't run into cyano problems with such a low dose.
Just a newbie's experience with this. It's simple and the results are impressive. Learning the science behind it has been fun.
Oh and btw, does dripping kalk help lower phosphates at any appreciable rate? I also started kalk drip when the last of the HA disappeared.
Oh and btw, does dripping kalk help lower phosphates at any appreciable rate? I also started kalk drip when the last of the HA disappeared.
Maybe some PO4 precipitation occurs in localized high ph areas where kalk dosing occurs. The PO4 may join with the carbonate forming a crystal which may become coated with organics and skimmed out. Or some PO4 precipitation may occur to calcium carbonate surfaces in the tank.
Randy Farely explains the hypotheses which are unproven but plausible in detail in this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#10
Maybe some PO4 precipitation occurs in localized high ph areas where kalk dosing occurs. The PO4 may join with the carbonate forming a crystal which may become coated with organics and skimmed out. Or some PO4 precipitation may occur to calcium carbonate surfaces in the tank.
Randy Farely explains the hypotheses which are unproven but plausible in detail in this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#10
HighlandReefer
Team RC
That's an interesting topic when it comes to dosing carbon sources like vinegar. It can be difficult to discern between effects from carbon dosing, effects from added foods & effects from the combinations of the two provided lighting remains constant and other parameters. I know Randy is aware of these factors.
Randy, at what level of vinegar dosing did you see these effects from vinegar dosing? Perhaps at very high levels?
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Rodrigo_BG
New member
thanks Yogre and Tom
Cliff, no doubt in my mind the re darkening and in some cases recission was from dosing sugar even in small amount, ie 1/4tsp daily for a week to 50 gallons. I did it twice without any other variations in normal system routines and parameters. Silly me expecting a different result from the same action. I never hit a threshold where I noticed these issues with vodka and vinegar but I dose on the low side.
Randy, at what level of vinegar dosing did you see these effects from vinegar dosing? Perhaps at very high levels?
I do not recall at what levels I first saw the browning of organisms for vinegar dosing, but I eventually topped out above 400 mL vinegar per day for my 120 gallon main tank system (plus associated refugia for a total of about 300 gallons total volume).
I too agree with the sugar observations, where years ago I saw some organisms brown after a single dose of a few grams.
I do not recall at what levels I first saw the browning of organisms for vinegar dosing, but I eventually topped out above 400 mL vinegar per day for my 120 gallon main tank system (plus associated refugia for a total of about 300 gallons total volume).
I too agree with the sugar observations, where years ago I saw some organisms brown after a single dose of a few grams.
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Thanks Randy & Tom. 
So Randy, you were dosing at max. level about 1.33 ml. per gallon of tank water. My max was about 0.45 ml vinegar per gallon. You were dosing 3X more than I was. I believe you have previously stated that you started to see problems at the 1.33 ml/gallon level?
So Randy, you were dosing at max. level about 1.33 ml. per gallon of tank water. My max was about 0.45 ml vinegar per gallon. You were dosing 3X more than I was. I believe you have previously stated that you started to see problems at the 1.33 ml/gallon level?
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I can't remember the exact history of the dosing, but here's the thread where I discussed the 400+ ml being too much:
Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1813810
Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1813810
HighlandReefer
Team RC
I was trying to find that thread & couldn't . :lol:
I have it saved now.
Thanks.
I have it saved now.
Thanks.
So Randy, you were dosing at max. level about 1.33 ml. per gallon of tank water. My max was about 0.45 ml vinegar per gallon. You were dosing
Cliff, I dose roughly the same amount as you and have been for over 2 years. Some of mine is vodka but it works out to abut 272 ml vinegar equivalents for the 550 gallons or 0.49 ml. per gallon.
Cliff, I dose roughly the same amount as you and have been for over 2 years. Some of mine is vodka but it works out to abut 272 ml vinegar equivalents for the 550 gallons or 0.49 ml. per gallon.
:eek2: wow, that is not much. That may explain why my zoox was being expelled. I was adding probably about 1/4 to 1/2 that to about 30g :lol:
Also, I am trying to wrap my head around the effects of DOC consumption by zoox. Basically, is it good or bad? I think that if zoox is growing fast radical byproducts are of course an issue. So, this would be bad.
I also know though that if DIN is present, coral skelatenogenesis is inhibited and IIRC this is believed to be because photosynthesis and calcification compete for DIC. So, if the zoox is able to use DOC, and DOC is plentiful in comparison to DIN, would that result in more DIC available to the host for skelatenogenesis? Wouldn't this be good?
