vinegar dosing
- Thread starter biecacka
- Start date
Good articles --- I'll wait until all of the variables are found and the formula has been tested a few years !
While I don't generally push vinegar dosing, I think those of us who have been doing it for quite some time would say the initial experiment is done. But like dosing anything, you may need to tweak on your own system to find the best way to do.
I'm not sure what you mean by the many unknowns. There is no big trick, no critical dose, and it is cheap and easy to accomplish. I've raised the dose incredibly high in my system without show-stopping problems, although I did decide that somewhat lower dosing was better (I was up to 400+ ml per day!). That said, I think it works best in combination with several other methods of nutrient management, such as skimming, GAC, growing macroalgae, phosphate binders, etc. I use all of those. I also like to dose it very slowly with a dosing pump during only the daylight hours, and I dose upstream of a huge rock filled refugium.
FWIW, I prefer vinegar to vodka because in my system I've noted a lesser tendency to cyano using vinegar.
That said, I'm not convinced that organic carbon dosing is a useful way to deal with cyano problems. Cyano can fix nitrogen from the air and does not need nitrate to thrive. Lowering phosphate is generally a better way to deal with cyano, IMO.
While I don't generally push vinegar dosing, I think those of us who have been doing it for quite some time would say the initial experiment is done. But like dosing anything, you may need to tweak on your own system to find the best way to do.
I'm not sure what you mean by the many unknowns. There is no big trick, no critical dose, and it is cheap and easy to accomplish. I've raised the dose incredibly high in my system without show-stopping problems, although I did decide that somewhat lower dosing was better (I was up to 400+ ml per day!). That said, I think it works best in combination with several other methods of nutrient management, such as skimming, GAC, growing macroalgae, phosphate binders, etc. I use all of those. I also like to dose it very slowly with a dosing pump during only the daylight hours, and I dose upstream of a huge rock filled refugium.
FWIW, I prefer vinegar to vodka because in my system I've noted a lesser tendency to cyano using vinegar.
That said, I'm not convinced that organic carbon dosing is a useful way to deal with cyano problems. Cyano can fix nitrogen from the air and does not need nitrate to thrive. Lowering phosphate is generally a better way to deal with cyano, IMO.
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Hi Randy.
Good to hear from you.
I use multiple methods as well GAC ,skimming, refugia, gfo,cryptic zones etc and keep the carbon dose moderate to low . Adding some vinegar to my mix to about 70% vodka and 30% vinegar in total carbon content based on your shared experience knocked out the cyano completely excdept for a bit from time to time in the chaeto fuge. Been locked in for over two years now without any problems with sps or lps. Enjoying a nice run in my system without issues (stn, recission etc.). Zoanthus in particularly seem to do very well with the extra carbon; maybe it's the bacteria
Good to hear from you.
I use multiple methods as well GAC ,skimming, refugia, gfo,cryptic zones etc and keep the carbon dose moderate to low . Adding some vinegar to my mix to about 70% vodka and 30% vinegar in total carbon content based on your shared experience knocked out the cyano completely excdept for a bit from time to time in the chaeto fuge. Been locked in for over two years now without any problems with sps or lps. Enjoying a nice run in my system without issues (stn, recission etc.). Zoanthus in particularly seem to do very well with the extra carbon; maybe it's the bacteria
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Good articles --- I'll wait until all of the variables are found and the formula has been tested a few years !
While I don't generally push vinegar dosing, I think those of us who have been doing it for quite some time would say the initial experiment is done. But like dosing anything, you may need to tweak on your own system to find the best way to do.
I'm not sure what you mean by the many unknowns. There is no big trick, no critical dose, and it is cheap and easy to accomplish. I've raised the dose incredibly high in my system without show-stopping problems, although I did decide that somewhat lower dosing was better (I was up to 400+ ml per day!). That said, I think it works best in combination with several other methods of nutrient management, such as skimming, GAC, growing macroalgae, phosphate binders, etc. I use all of those. I also like to dose it very slowly with a dosing pump during only the daylight hours, and I dose upstream of a huge rock filled refugium.
FWIW, I prefer vinegar to vodka because in my system I've noted a lesser tendency to cyano using vinegar.
That said, I'm not convinced that organic carbon dosing is a useful way to deal with cyano problems. Cyano can fix nitrogen from the air and does not need nitrate to thrive. Lowering phosphate is generally a better way to deal with cyano, IMO.
Nice to have you back in action Randy.
I couldn't agree more with you, based on my experience with vinegar dosing.
Thanks Cliff.
Happy reefing.
Happy reefing.
wmdick_2007
New member
Thanks Randy
Maybe there was a reason I worded my first post as I did. I will stick with my 15-ml of Vinegar I dose in my Kalk.
Maybe there was a reason I worded my first post as I did. I will stick with my 15-ml of Vinegar I dose in my Kalk.
I tried vinegar dosing for two months in an attempt to grow macroalgae and eliminate the cyano problem. [125g,15mo young, good protein skimmer, gfo & carbon reactors]. I'm getting a growthon the sand bed that was difficult to syphon out. Also I still can't grow macroalgae & the minor cyano outbreak is back. MY(API) testkitsays the nitrates & phosphates are zero.
I still thin I'm deficient in nutrients, sowill start dosing with Brightwell products.
Thanks for all the help & welcome back Randy. Jim
I still thin I'm deficient in nutrients, sowill start dosing with Brightwell products.
Thanks for all the help & welcome back Randy. Jim
Thanks.
I'm not sure I understand the premise. Why would dosing vinegar help macroalgae grow? What type of macro?
What nutrients are you thinking to dose?
I'm not sure I understand the premise. Why would dosing vinegar help macroalgae grow? What type of macro?
What nutrients are you thinking to dose?
Randy, I have plenty of flow and lighting in the fuge tank but cant' grow cheato or calupra. I'm guessing it's due to the lack of nutrients.
In the display my few corals (ricordea, frogswawn,star polys) are doing good but the mushrooms size reduced (50% or more) since dosing sugar. I'm not adding more corals until I get the mushroom back to a healthy growth plus eliminate the cyano problem.
I understand that cyano is an indication of high phosphates & nitrates & low netrients. Althoush my tests (API) show not phosplates or nitrates, I'm sure
my base rocks (only 15 months in the tank) are still leaching phosphates.
I was hooping the vinegar dosing would 'stimulate' nutrient growth but instead it caused a clear algae thpe growth in the sand and on the rock surfaces. So after 2 months I just stopped dosing vinegar & dose Brightwell's
MB7 & PhytoChrom. Would you have a better recommendation?
Thanks, Jim
In the display my few corals (ricordea, frogswawn,star polys) are doing good but the mushrooms size reduced (50% or more) since dosing sugar. I'm not adding more corals until I get the mushroom back to a healthy growth plus eliminate the cyano problem.
I understand that cyano is an indication of high phosphates & nitrates & low netrients. Althoush my tests (API) show not phosplates or nitrates, I'm sure
my base rocks (only 15 months in the tank) are still leaching phosphates.
I was hooping the vinegar dosing would 'stimulate' nutrient growth but instead it caused a clear algae thpe growth in the sand and on the rock surfaces. So after 2 months I just stopped dosing vinegar & dose Brightwell's
MB7 & PhytoChrom. Would you have a better recommendation?
Thanks, Jim
I think the macroalgae may need more PO4. Mine won't grow and begins to wane when PO4 is below .04ppm for any length of time. Of course the extra PO4 may spur some nuisance algae growth, so it's a balancing act of sorts.
The cyano could be feeding off organics or bacterial by products . Perhaps the the mb7 and the PhytoChrom are more readily useable by the cyano and never get to the algae in a useable form.
Nutrients include;organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous. So "high PO4 an& NO3 & low nutrients" as a cause for cyano is confusing to me. Foods you bring into the tank will generally by nature include: some phosphate, nitrogen and organic carbon.
The clear stringy "algae described in your post was likely bacterial indicative of a need to cut back on the carbon dosing.
If it was my tank, I'd stop the Phyto chrom and microcrobcter 7 dosing and regularly feed a fish or two in there .
The corals you have don't really require super low nutirients so if NO3 rises moderate vinegar and/ or vodka dosing should be fine,imo.
If the PO4 rises from leaching rock , I'd use a phosphate binder or remover like gfo to keep it at or under .05ppm.
The cyano could be feeding off organics or bacterial by products . Perhaps the the mb7 and the PhytoChrom are more readily useable by the cyano and never get to the algae in a useable form.
Nutrients include;organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous. So "high PO4 an& NO3 & low nutrients" as a cause for cyano is confusing to me. Foods you bring into the tank will generally by nature include: some phosphate, nitrogen and organic carbon.
The clear stringy "algae described in your post was likely bacterial indicative of a need to cut back on the carbon dosing.
If it was my tank, I'd stop the Phyto chrom and microcrobcter 7 dosing and regularly feed a fish or two in there .
The corals you have don't really require super low nutirients so if NO3 rises moderate vinegar and/ or vodka dosing should be fine,imo.
If the PO4 rises from leaching rock , I'd use a phosphate binder or remover like gfo to keep it at or under .05ppm.
I was hooping the vinegar dosing would 'stimulate' nutrient growth
What do you mean by nutrients? Usually, people mean nitrogen (like nitrate) and phosphorus (phosphate). Adding an organic carbon source will usually lower these.
What do you mean by nutrients? Usually, people mean nitrogen (like nitrate) and phosphorus (phosphate). Adding an organic carbon source will usually lower these.
What are your specific goals?
seapug
Premium Member
Organic carbon is used as a catalyst to cause the growth of bacteria that consume nitrate and phosphate. The "algae" you see is actually bacteria films that are consuming the nutrients. If you are dosing organic carbon and can't keep macroalgae alive, it's because the macroalgae is being outcompeted for nutrients it needs (phosphate and nitrate) by the bacteria you are stimulating with the carbon dosing.
So if you want macroalgae to grow, stop the organic C additions.
Randy, I want to wake up some day without see cyano bacteria and a dirty sand bed. Prime goalis to grow soft corals and ricordea/mushrooms as well as retain the light fish load. Believe I have an adequate clean-up crew, good flow rate and good lighting.
I do notice the cyano grows best after a water change despite the TDS readings of 'zero'. Thereofre I try tocut back the water change to 5%/wk.
Jim
I do notice the cyano grows best after a water change despite the TDS readings of 'zero'. Thereofre I try tocut back the water change to 5%/wk.
Jim
Cyano can be difficult to get rid of. I'd suggest focusing on phosphate reduction, although it is not a guaranteed solution. Something like GFO as a phosphate binder.
It doesn't matter what you detect (or not) with a kit. If there is an algae or cyano problem, it is getting phosphorus somehow. And if you intercept it first, then the algae or cyano can be reduced.
Reducing organics can also help such as with GAC and increased skimming.
It doesn't matter what you detect (or not) with a kit. If there is an algae or cyano problem, it is getting phosphorus somehow. And if you intercept it first, then the algae or cyano can be reduced.
Reducing organics can also help such as with GAC and increased skimming.
Cyano is tough, but usually, the following is all that is really needed IME.
1) Run GFO change out often.
2) 15%ish per week water changes using RO/DI water.
3) Run lots of carbon and change out weekly.
4) Wet skim
6) don't overfeed
5) siphon out existing cyano, or increase flow to get cyano and detritus into water column to be skimmer out.
6) Good clean up crew to consume excess food.
I don't think there is a great hypothesis for why carbon dosing would feed bacteria, but not cyano bacteria. This is because cyano can likely utilize many of the same carbon sources, in the same forms as the bacteria your trying to culture. The only way I can see it helping is if you have bacteria in your system that can effectively out compete cyano for nutrients, given the nutrient ratios of your system. This is sort of anyone's guess though IMO, so I think the methods listed above will likely produce more consistent results than carbon dosing, at least when it comes to cyano.
1) Run GFO change out often.
2) 15%ish per week water changes using RO/DI water.
3) Run lots of carbon and change out weekly.
4) Wet skim
6) don't overfeed
5) siphon out existing cyano, or increase flow to get cyano and detritus into water column to be skimmer out.
6) Good clean up crew to consume excess food.
I don't think there is a great hypothesis for why carbon dosing would feed bacteria, but not cyano bacteria. This is because cyano can likely utilize many of the same carbon sources, in the same forms as the bacteria your trying to culture. The only way I can see it helping is if you have bacteria in your system that can effectively out compete cyano for nutrients, given the nutrient ratios of your system. This is sort of anyone's guess though IMO, so I think the methods listed above will likely produce more consistent results than carbon dosing, at least when it comes to cyano.
The pellets might possibly be better long term, but certainly will not act as fast, and I'd try the GFO first.
