TylerHaworth
New member
Thanks Tom, it's threads like this that have helped me avoid innumerable disasters through my last 4-5 years in the hobby.
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing
- Thread starter tmz
- Start date
[Quote TMZ] Half in the sump and half in a drain leading to a cryptic refugium.. Mostly I dose vokda; easier to bolus dose. Don't want to highjack as this thread is complex enough ;I will say there is no reason not to use lanthanum chloride when organic carbon dosing if you need extra PO4 reduction.
Here's a thread on on organic carbon dosing that may be of interest:
Thanks Tom, I'm subscribed to your thread, I could not recall where in your system you dose to. I'm planning a similar setup where my DT drains into a 55gal barrel out to a 2nd 55gal barrel out to a 3rd 55gal barrel with live rock that will be my cryptic area then out to my sump that has my skimmer and a feed that flows through my refugium and drops back to the sump with my return pumps to the DT. Vinegar seems to keep things in ck right now for me. I was dosing into my refugium, but I move the line to go directly to my sump, so it mixes through my whole tank before it returns back through my overflows.
Does this sound ok, or should I dose to the first 55gal barrel or the third 55gal barrel with the rock. I appreciate your input.---Rick
Here's a thread on on organic carbon dosing that may be of interest:
Thanks Tom, I'm subscribed to your thread, I could not recall where in your system you dose to. I'm planning a similar setup where my DT drains into a 55gal barrel out to a 2nd 55gal barrel out to a 3rd 55gal barrel with live rock that will be my cryptic area then out to my sump that has my skimmer and a feed that flows through my refugium and drops back to the sump with my return pumps to the DT. Vinegar seems to keep things in ck right now for me. I was dosing into my refugium, but I move the line to go directly to my sump, so it mixes through my whole tank before it returns back through my overflows.
Does this sound ok, or should I dose to the first 55gal barrel or the third 55gal barrel with the rock. I appreciate your input.---Rick
Randrew215
New member
Tom,
Thank you for the excellent information in this thread. I've been dosing a mix of 75% vodka 25% vinegar and have brought it up to about 0.7 equivalents of vinegar/gallon since I started dosing about four months ago. Mostly it has brought improvement to the tank but I do get cyano outbreak on the rock, especially towards the time I need to change out my GFO and GAC (change both monthly). I don't want to increase my dosing too far though I don't mind going up as long as I don't see other adverse effects. Questions:
1. Are you still running your system without GFO? I just wanted an update on how that was going.
2. My nitrates are testing at zero, though I still need to clean my glass about once/ week and I get some brownish discoloration on the sand bed and the cyano I mentioned on the rockwork. My euphillyia and LPS are doing well, so I don't trust the reading of zero (Red Sea test kit). Does it sound like the cyano may abate if I increase my carbon dosing or does this seem like an adverse effect of too much dosing?
Thanks for your input!
Thank you for the excellent information in this thread. I've been dosing a mix of 75% vodka 25% vinegar and have brought it up to about 0.7 equivalents of vinegar/gallon since I started dosing about four months ago. Mostly it has brought improvement to the tank but I do get cyano outbreak on the rock, especially towards the time I need to change out my GFO and GAC (change both monthly). I don't want to increase my dosing too far though I don't mind going up as long as I don't see other adverse effects. Questions:
1. Are you still running your system without GFO? I just wanted an update on how that was going.
2. My nitrates are testing at zero, though I still need to clean my glass about once/ week and I get some brownish discoloration on the sand bed and the cyano I mentioned on the rockwork. My euphillyia and LPS are doing well, so I don't trust the reading of zero (Red Sea test kit). Does it sound like the cyano may abate if I increase my carbon dosing or does this seem like an adverse effect of too much dosing?
Thanks for your input!
007,
I don't know what the first two barrels are for?
The hope I have in dosing some to the extra live rock area is that the bacteria will grow there more and feed the sponges and filter feeders there;less in th displays and frag tanks. These facultative heterotrophic bacteria need surface area to grow on so I'm not sure much woudlgrow in he empty barrels. I find a good bit of bacteial mass in the canister filter I use as a reactor for gac and some in the gfo reactors where I use them. Acetic acid is miscible, it spreads out readily so the food for the bacteria should be everywhere in short order. Don't really know if it matters where you dose it but it's my habit to split it between th sump and intake for the rock areas . It does matter when and how fast with acetic acid ;ie, during periods of photosynthesis and slowly. Acetic acid dumps a bunch of H right away casing pH to drop precipitously. it makes up for that later in the process as the acetate adds oxide . Vodka can be dosed in larger quantities at once. Both reduce pH from Co2 genrated from bacterial activity more or less equally over time. I lost .15 ph and made up for it with CO2 scrubbers.
I don't know what the first two barrels are for?
The hope I have in dosing some to the extra live rock area is that the bacteria will grow there more and feed the sponges and filter feeders there;less in th displays and frag tanks. These facultative heterotrophic bacteria need surface area to grow on so I'm not sure much woudlgrow in he empty barrels. I find a good bit of bacteial mass in the canister filter I use as a reactor for gac and some in the gfo reactors where I use them. Acetic acid is miscible, it spreads out readily so the food for the bacteria should be everywhere in short order. Don't really know if it matters where you dose it but it's my habit to split it between th sump and intake for the rock areas . It does matter when and how fast with acetic acid ;ie, during periods of photosynthesis and slowly. Acetic acid dumps a bunch of H right away casing pH to drop precipitously. it makes up for that later in the process as the acetate adds oxide . Vodka can be dosed in larger quantities at once. Both reduce pH from Co2 genrated from bacterial activity more or less equally over time. I lost .15 ph and made up for it with CO2 scrubbers.
Hi,
2. My nitrates are testing at zero, though I still need to clean my glass about once/ week and I get some brownish discoloration on the sand bed and the cyano I mentioned on the rockwork. My euphillyia and LPS are doing well, so I don't trust the reading of zero (Red Sea test kit). Does it sound like the cyano may abate if I increase my carbon dosing or does this seem like an adverse effect of too much dosing?
I would not increase the dose . .7 vinegar equivalents is on the higher end. I might drop it back a little and use more gfo or lanthanum chloride or get out on the edge and try a little sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate to bump up the nitrogen and enable the bacterial to use more phospahte and organic carbon. But wit hthe extra N you might get too much bacterial mass ;so, go very easy .
1. Are you still running your system without GFO? I just wanted an update on how that was going.
Yes but it's too soon to report meaningfully.
PO4 held for more than a month ,sub .03, but then began to riseinto the .05ppm plus range. I tweaked with a tiny amount of sodium nitrate (3 grams for 650 gallons ) just to get it to about .5ppm ,a light tint. The PO4 dropped again but even with this small amount of extra NO3 bacteria growth became slightly intrusive. .Strings appeared hear and there.
Right now I'm still moitoring PO4, NO3 and bacterial growht and cheatin a bit with small amounts of lanthanum chloride to keep PO4 round.03ppm. .
There hasn't been any cyano.
I may go back to running gfo for the lower range PO4 if I can't figure the right mix of N and P to support just enough bacteria to do the job( keep PO4 and No3 very low but over 0) without excessive bacterial mass. That may not be an achievable goal without cutting back on feeding and livestock which I dont plan to do. So I might have to contiue to use a PO4 remover to get teh right balance for my system.
2. My nitrates are testing at zero, though I still need to clean my glass about once/ week and I get some brownish discoloration on the sand bed and the cyano I mentioned on the rockwork. My euphillyia and LPS are doing well, so I don't trust the reading of zero (Red Sea test kit). Does it sound like the cyano may abate if I increase my carbon dosing or does this seem like an adverse effect of too much dosing?
I would not increase the dose . .7 vinegar equivalents is on the higher end. I might drop it back a little and use more gfo or lanthanum chloride or get out on the edge and try a little sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate to bump up the nitrogen and enable the bacterial to use more phospahte and organic carbon. But wit hthe extra N you might get too much bacterial mass ;so, go very easy .
1. Are you still running your system without GFO? I just wanted an update on how that was going.
Yes but it's too soon to report meaningfully.
PO4 held for more than a month ,sub .03, but then began to riseinto the .05ppm plus range. I tweaked with a tiny amount of sodium nitrate (3 grams for 650 gallons ) just to get it to about .5ppm ,a light tint. The PO4 dropped again but even with this small amount of extra NO3 bacteria growth became slightly intrusive. .Strings appeared hear and there.
Right now I'm still moitoring PO4, NO3 and bacterial growht and cheatin a bit with small amounts of lanthanum chloride to keep PO4 round.03ppm. .
There hasn't been any cyano.
I may go back to running gfo for the lower range PO4 if I can't figure the right mix of N and P to support just enough bacteria to do the job( keep PO4 and No3 very low but over 0) without excessive bacterial mass. That may not be an achievable goal without cutting back on feeding and livestock which I dont plan to do. So I might have to contiue to use a PO4 remover to get teh right balance for my system.
[Quote tmz] I don't know what the first two barrels are for?
The hope I have in dosing some to the extra live rock area is that the bacteria will grow there more and feed the sponges and filter feeders there;less in th displays and frag tanks. These facultative heterotrophic bacteria need surface area to grow on so I'm not sure much woudlgrow in he empty barrels. I find a good bit of bacteial mass in the canister filter I use as a reactor for gac and some in the gfo reactors where I use them. Acetic acid is miscible, it spreads out readily so the food for the bacteria should be everywhere in short order. Don't really know if it matters where you dose it but it's my habit to split it between th sump and intake for the rock areas . It does matter when and how fast with acetic acid ;ie, during periods of photosynthesis and slowly. Acetic acid dumps a bunch of H right away casing pH to drop precipitously. it makes up for that later in the process as the acetate adds oxide . Vodka can be dosed in larger quantities at once. Both reduce pH from Co2 genrated from bacterial activity more or less equally over time. I lost .15 ph and made up for it with CO2 scrubbers.
Hey Tom,
Thank you for the input. I think I'll dose the vinegar some to my barrel with the rock(cryptic area) and some to my sump. I have adjusted my dosing over time @ yours and Randy's recommendations,and have dialed in a bit of a sweet spot for my system. I use a BRS doser on one of their timers, and spread the dosing out over a 24hr. period. On my barrels the first two 55gal barrels are actually for water changes. The DT drains to the first one through a filter sock, and from that one to the second one, and from that one to the cryptic zone and on to the sump. My DT is around 650gals. and with the barrels, sump, and fuge. another 250gals. I'm copying the water change set up of Dvanacker (TOTM Dec.2012). I turn off a valve supplying the first barrel and turn another one to switch the flow to the cryptic barrel #3.Then I open a drain to the first two barrels which drains them from the bottom (surprising what the socks miss). This changes +-100gals approx. 10% @ week. I refill them, add the salt, turn a couple valves and I'm done.
Don't know if you have followed Dvanacker's thread, but he runs his system on 2 part and Biopellets. He really has some amazing corals.
Anyhow Thanks, and I'll be following your thread.---Rick
The hope I have in dosing some to the extra live rock area is that the bacteria will grow there more and feed the sponges and filter feeders there;less in th displays and frag tanks. These facultative heterotrophic bacteria need surface area to grow on so I'm not sure much woudlgrow in he empty barrels. I find a good bit of bacteial mass in the canister filter I use as a reactor for gac and some in the gfo reactors where I use them. Acetic acid is miscible, it spreads out readily so the food for the bacteria should be everywhere in short order. Don't really know if it matters where you dose it but it's my habit to split it between th sump and intake for the rock areas . It does matter when and how fast with acetic acid ;ie, during periods of photosynthesis and slowly. Acetic acid dumps a bunch of H right away casing pH to drop precipitously. it makes up for that later in the process as the acetate adds oxide . Vodka can be dosed in larger quantities at once. Both reduce pH from Co2 genrated from bacterial activity more or less equally over time. I lost .15 ph and made up for it with CO2 scrubbers.
Hey Tom,
Thank you for the input. I think I'll dose the vinegar some to my barrel with the rock(cryptic area) and some to my sump. I have adjusted my dosing over time @ yours and Randy's recommendations,and have dialed in a bit of a sweet spot for my system. I use a BRS doser on one of their timers, and spread the dosing out over a 24hr. period. On my barrels the first two 55gal barrels are actually for water changes. The DT drains to the first one through a filter sock, and from that one to the second one, and from that one to the cryptic zone and on to the sump. My DT is around 650gals. and with the barrels, sump, and fuge. another 250gals. I'm copying the water change set up of Dvanacker (TOTM Dec.2012). I turn off a valve supplying the first barrel and turn another one to switch the flow to the cryptic barrel #3.Then I open a drain to the first two barrels which drains them from the bottom (surprising what the socks miss). This changes +-100gals approx. 10% @ week. I refill them, add the salt, turn a couple valves and I'm done.
Don't know if you have followed Dvanacker's thread, but he runs his system on 2 part and Biopellets. He really has some amazing corals.
Anyhow Thanks, and I'll be following your thread.---Rick
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reefer4unme
New member
I know I'm new to this forum but I'm old in the hobby of reefkeeping so I figure I would put my experiment of vodka dosing into good use.
To start off I currently have a 34 solana SPS dominant reeftank with a deep sandbed.i been vodka dosing my reef for a little over a year with great results as well as awesome coral growth.
NOW to begin with my experiment:we all know the sole purpose of vodka dosing is to lower nitrates and phosphates(basically a low nutrient reeftank)and also boost inorganic bacteria that breaks down the nutrients that are fueling algae growth.where people fail in carbon dosing is The increased bacterial biomass and growth will decrease your dissolved O2 levels.
WELL....
I took it to a whole new level.....remember I only have a 34 gallon tank so if I'm off on anything tragedy will happen faster due to a small water column as opposed to having a larger tank.ANyways...if your 02 levels are dropping due to increased biomass growth(bacteria) the easiest way to boost your 02 level to maintain your parameters is to add hydrogen peroxide WITH your daily vodka dosing...if you think I'm crazy...like I said I have a small reef with no problems doing this.i been adding 1mil to every 10 gallons
(3 mil for my 34 gallon)take it upon yourself to do this ofcourse as I'm not responsible for your results.there have been many in the past that use hydrogen peroxide to rid unwanted algae in a reeftank...I'm mean after all hydrogen peroxide is basically oxygen in a liquid form.the reason behind my madness is simply to add oxygen to an oxygen depleted reeftank and the skimate you produce is 5times more than you would with just vodka dosing due to adding more oxygen to the water....ooh and the reason for the deep sand bed is to house more bacteria that is being introduce from the vodka dosing
To start off I currently have a 34 solana SPS dominant reeftank with a deep sandbed.i been vodka dosing my reef for a little over a year with great results as well as awesome coral growth.
NOW to begin with my experiment:we all know the sole purpose of vodka dosing is to lower nitrates and phosphates(basically a low nutrient reeftank)and also boost inorganic bacteria that breaks down the nutrients that are fueling algae growth.where people fail in carbon dosing is The increased bacterial biomass and growth will decrease your dissolved O2 levels.
WELL....
I took it to a whole new level.....remember I only have a 34 gallon tank so if I'm off on anything tragedy will happen faster due to a small water column as opposed to having a larger tank.ANyways...if your 02 levels are dropping due to increased biomass growth(bacteria) the easiest way to boost your 02 level to maintain your parameters is to add hydrogen peroxide WITH your daily vodka dosing...if you think I'm crazy...like I said I have a small reef with no problems doing this.i been adding 1mil to every 10 gallons
(3 mil for my 34 gallon)take it upon yourself to do this ofcourse as I'm not responsible for your results.there have been many in the past that use hydrogen peroxide to rid unwanted algae in a reeftank...I'm mean after all hydrogen peroxide is basically oxygen in a liquid form.the reason behind my madness is simply to add oxygen to an oxygen depleted reeftank and the skimate you produce is 5times more than you would with just vodka dosing due to adding more oxygen to the water....ooh and the reason for the deep sand bed is to house more bacteria that is being introduce from the vodka dosing
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Thanks fo chiming in.
Hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidant useful for dips and out of tank use for certain nuisance algaes and pests . I would not add it to a reef tank, It burns organics and kills things seen and unseen.
The bacteria in this process are not inorganic as you note ,.There are no inorganic bacteria of which I am aware. Are you measuring oxygen levels btw or just guessing they are low.
I've been doing this for over 5 years with no O2 issues. Orp readings are also in a good range 370 to 400. Surface agitation and gas exchange are important as is skimming.If I needed an oxygen boost ,I'd probably dose oxygen or try ozone but it's not needed,ime.
Hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidant useful for dips and out of tank use for certain nuisance algaes and pests . I would not add it to a reef tank, It burns organics and kills things seen and unseen.
The bacteria in this process are not inorganic as you note ,.There are no inorganic bacteria of which I am aware. Are you measuring oxygen levels btw or just guessing they are low.
I've been doing this for over 5 years with no O2 issues. Orp readings are also in a good range 370 to 400. Surface agitation and gas exchange are important as is skimming.If I needed an oxygen boost ,I'd probably dose oxygen or try ozone but it's not needed,ime.
If nothing else it's giving the bacteria an out of the way place to grow. Might need to change it out more often or rinse it periodically.. Mine does that sometimes but bacteria seems to grow on other surfaces in the system. If your skimmer is strong enough , you may not need it. Personallly, I've haven't run my tanks without some gac in many years.
reefer4,
To be clear,I don't think you're are crazy. I t hought about using some. I understand what you are trying to accomplish but hydrogen peroxide is unpredictable in variable tank conditions.It's not just oxygen in a bottle ,it's a mild acid and a strong oxidant which can do serious damage to living things at variable and unpredictable concentrations. If you do choose to experiment with it be very careful and test oxygen levels to be sure you need it at all and to measure any effect it may be having on them. Again personally, there is no level that I can recommend as a safe level when dosed directly to a tank not withstanding some of the anecdotal accounts related to periodic sterilization techniques to kill nuisance algae. . There are other accounts where damage has been reported even at low dosages as well.
To be clear,I don't think you're are crazy. I t hought about using some. I understand what you are trying to accomplish but hydrogen peroxide is unpredictable in variable tank conditions.It's not just oxygen in a bottle ,it's a mild acid and a strong oxidant which can do serious damage to living things at variable and unpredictable concentrations. If you do choose to experiment with it be very careful and test oxygen levels to be sure you need it at all and to measure any effect it may be having on them. Again personally, there is no level that I can recommend as a safe level when dosed directly to a tank not withstanding some of the anecdotal accounts related to periodic sterilization techniques to kill nuisance algae. . There are other accounts where damage has been reported even at low dosages as well.
AmherstReef
New member
Hi Tom, hoping you can give me your opinion on my dosing situation.
I started doing vodka/vinegar (75/25%) to help with a few areas of red cyano and to lower phosphates. My nitrates were only .2 when I started and are now 0 -.1. My phosphates were running anywhere from .07 to .12 and now are running from 0 - 0.5.
After two months I'm up to 5.8ml vodka & 15.6ml vinegar for 100 gallon system. My problem is this, as the two individual spots of red cyano disappeared the entire sandbed has gradually turned brown. So while I have not experience any bacterial strings am I dosing too much? Should I cut back to see if the sandbed clears up ?
I started doing vodka/vinegar (75/25%) to help with a few areas of red cyano and to lower phosphates. My nitrates were only .2 when I started and are now 0 -.1. My phosphates were running anywhere from .07 to .12 and now are running from 0 - 0.5.
After two months I'm up to 5.8ml vodka & 15.6ml vinegar for 100 gallon system. My problem is this, as the two individual spots of red cyano disappeared the entire sandbed has gradually turned brown. So while I have not experience any bacterial strings am I dosing too much? Should I cut back to see if the sandbed clears up ?
Personally, I'd like to see a little more nitrogen.. Is the brown stuff diatoms or dinoflagellates. If it's diatoms you cn just puff them up once in a while and they will eventually wane. Are you also running gfo? I'd probably cut back by 25% on the organic carbon dosing and run a little gfo.
AmherstReef
New member
The brown is definitely diatoms, I have been raking and puffing with a turkey baster which has not helped. I do run reactors with both GAC and GFO.
I have not had issues with diatoms in years and the only thing that has changed recently is the carbon dosing.
I'll cut back 25% and see if that helps.
I have not had issues with diatoms in years and the only thing that has changed recently is the carbon dosing.
I'll cut back 25% and see if that helps.
reefer4unme
New member
I totally agree 100% with the fact of peroxide being a very strong oxidant and also told whomever was interested in doing this to do it at your own risk.i only was doing this as an experiment and my conclusion was that most of the vodka being dosed at a maintainence level is being exported thru the skimmer which is providing you with that dark skimate.the peroxide was being exported thru the skimmer as well which is speeding up the process with the help of added oxygen..as of right now I weened my tank off of vodka dosing and peroxide only for the simple fact that it isn't needed anymore.my refugium is packed with chaeto,grape caulerpa,red gracilaria and red mangroves which would die as most macro algae's would while vodka dosing.most of the oxygen is being produced now with the help of the macro algae.i always aimed for and I'm a strong believer of having a natural Ecosystem it's simple concept.also temperature plays a huge roll in oxygen and dissolved oxygen and also the salinity.the higher the temperature the lower the oxygen and dissolve oxygen and the raise of the salinity which in turn causes bleaching of corals.the lower the temperature the higher the oxygen levels are going to be.as well as water moving(or ripples at the water surface)the carbon dioxide is being exported thru gas exchange at the water surface . Water that is deprived of beneficial oxygen is the main reason behind the fact that fish and other living organisms may become stressed or suffocate in extreme condition with prolonged exposure to these dangerously low oxygen levels. At the other end of the spectrum, water that contains too much DIssolved oxygen or a supersaturated level of oxygen in the water, may cause corals, anemones and other livestock, containing zooxanthellae, to bleach.i weened my tank off the vodka before the peroxide so my macro algae I added can survive and then weened my tank off the peroxide once the oxygen levels where stable enough for the macro algae can produce oxygen on there own
I'm glad you are no longer dosing peroxide.
A few other notes:
Peroxide is not skimmable;skimming takes amphipathic and some hydrophobic molecules. It probably wouldn't make it to the skimmer anyway , it reacts very quickly.
A natural ecosystem sounds cool and in vogue with a green planet themes but I'm not sure what it means and it's not a simple concept.
The sea contains every element known to man in stable proportions and levels. Closed systems are nothing like the sea . The is an extraordinary amount of life and biological activity packed into a miniscule amount of water for one thing and the naturally occurring balances in the sea don't readily occur in aquariums without some help.
Acetate the end product of vodka and vinegar is a naturally occuring substance useful to living things. Bacteria are natural. Culturing bacteria isn't much different than culturing algae in tems of being "natural". Algae also puts out toxins and refractory( non bioavaible/ resistive to breaking down) organics which in a closed system can be a problem too. If you have the space and light, enough algae can be grown and harvested to keep N and P down but there is still a need to account for the organics in the water and those the ale produces.
I grow some caulerpa along with vodka and vinegar dosing . It's not the ethanol or acetic acid that limits macro algae It's the depletion of PO4 below levels the macro needs and perhaps depletion of iron as well.
It's matter of achieving a balance close to a natural one. In many closed sytems the naturally occurring balance between organic C, phosphorus and nitrogen is off kilter. If it wasn't there wouldn't be a build up of nitrates or inorganic phosphate beyond nsw levels as bacteria would use them along with the organic C. Put another way, denitrifying bacteria are limited by a lack of bioavalible C in many aquariums. They need all 3( C,N and P) plus oxygen.
Gas exchange and photosynthesis can and do provide adequate oxygen in most tanks whether they are dosed with organic carbon or not. CO2 levels equilibrate with the surrounding air as well.
ORP doesn't really serve well as a surrogate measure for free oxygen. It's a complex measure. Could be high with high nitrate for example or with low pH as another. It's useful in controlling ozone dosing . Most who use peroxide actually experience a drop in orp as it works very quickly to burn things up contributing orp reducing organics to the water so quickly that any boost in orp from the oxygen isn't even detected.
BTW CO2 is also drawn in at the surface of the water not just exported.
I don't think oxygen depletion is the main reason folks lose fish. I think disease is.
A few other notes:
Peroxide is not skimmable;skimming takes amphipathic and some hydrophobic molecules. It probably wouldn't make it to the skimmer anyway , it reacts very quickly.
A natural ecosystem sounds cool and in vogue with a green planet themes but I'm not sure what it means and it's not a simple concept.
The sea contains every element known to man in stable proportions and levels. Closed systems are nothing like the sea . The is an extraordinary amount of life and biological activity packed into a miniscule amount of water for one thing and the naturally occurring balances in the sea don't readily occur in aquariums without some help.
Acetate the end product of vodka and vinegar is a naturally occuring substance useful to living things. Bacteria are natural. Culturing bacteria isn't much different than culturing algae in tems of being "natural". Algae also puts out toxins and refractory( non bioavaible/ resistive to breaking down) organics which in a closed system can be a problem too. If you have the space and light, enough algae can be grown and harvested to keep N and P down but there is still a need to account for the organics in the water and those the ale produces.
I grow some caulerpa along with vodka and vinegar dosing . It's not the ethanol or acetic acid that limits macro algae It's the depletion of PO4 below levels the macro needs and perhaps depletion of iron as well.
It's matter of achieving a balance close to a natural one. In many closed sytems the naturally occurring balance between organic C, phosphorus and nitrogen is off kilter. If it wasn't there wouldn't be a build up of nitrates or inorganic phosphate beyond nsw levels as bacteria would use them along with the organic C. Put another way, denitrifying bacteria are limited by a lack of bioavalible C in many aquariums. They need all 3( C,N and P) plus oxygen.
Gas exchange and photosynthesis can and do provide adequate oxygen in most tanks whether they are dosed with organic carbon or not. CO2 levels equilibrate with the surrounding air as well.
ORP doesn't really serve well as a surrogate measure for free oxygen. It's a complex measure. Could be high with high nitrate for example or with low pH as another. It's useful in controlling ozone dosing . Most who use peroxide actually experience a drop in orp as it works very quickly to burn things up contributing orp reducing organics to the water so quickly that any boost in orp from the oxygen isn't even detected.
BTW CO2 is also drawn in at the surface of the water not just exported.
I don't think oxygen depletion is the main reason folks lose fish. I think disease is.
trueblackpercula
New member
Great thread,
I was think about adding mangroves to an existing Remote sand bed In my sump. If I did this and started to dose carbon would threre be a negative affect on the mangroves? What I am trying to achieve is the elimination of nuisance algea.
As always thank you
I was think about adding mangroves to an existing Remote sand bed In my sump. If I did this and started to dose carbon would threre be a negative affect on the mangroves? What I am trying to achieve is the elimination of nuisance algea.
As always thank you
Organic carbon dosing encourages bacteria to consume N and P ;the mangroves would be limited by low nutrients at some level. I've never kept a mangrove ,though. I understand they do use dissolved organics via their root systems , from a couple of articles I recall about the m, so it might even out in terms of nutrients somewhat.. I haven't seen reports of anyone ikeeping mangroves successfully while dosing organic carbon.
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