Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

Thanks I just don't know in what direction to go but here is my problem and tell me if carbon dosing is the wrong direction. I have 0 phosphates and o nitrates already but have dark green algea growing on my sand bed.
How should I tackle that with carbon or refugium?
Thanks
 
Spreadsheet

Spreadsheet

I am wondering if anyone would be willing to create a spreadsheet calculator that will take a given ratio (75:25) and total desired volume of a mixture of Vinegar and 80 proof Vodka to calculate the quantities of each part to make the mixture and then express it as Vinegar units potency and equivalent Vodka unit potency (/ML) .

After reading this great thread I am going to switch from Bio Pellets to this. I am already dosing 2 part so I would like to use one pump to dose this mixture.

Thank you everyone for putting this thread together. Truly amazing!!

Hi Tom, can you take a look?

I took some time to think on this the other night. Tom, based on some numbers I pulled from one of your recent posts I created this cumulative chart that should allow people to figure out how much to mix of the two for a given container to dispense from using your ratio. I also included some associated costs. You can calculate by changing to your tank volume. Take a look and provide some feedback...Please don't be too critical though and feel free to make improvements. I used a ratio for what I think Tom is using..

The chart shows the dose amount on the first line. Each line after is the next day with the previous dose added (cumulative). I did this as a cumulative to allow it to be used as a lookup for cost and mixture for a given total. Think of the total as the size of the dispensing container and the container volume decreasing as you move from the bottom of the chart toward the day 1.

by the way I assume it is ok to mix Vodka and the vinegar and dispense from one container? Is it necessary to shake it or doesn't it ever separate?

If I have the chart correct, I will be mixing about 4.6 cups Vodka with 11.4 cups vinegar to fill a 1 gallon vinegar container with mix to dispense from. This one gallon of mix (3785ML) will last me 210 days and cost me $20. Does this all look correct?
 

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Here is a post from another thread that may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21617201#post21617201
<table id="post21617201" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_21617201" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak
such as Vodka. Or Vinegar. Or the other options (biopellets etc.)

I haven't located the info on why people dose a mix of Vodka and Vinegar. Maybe someone (tmz) can explain?

Vodka can be bolus dosed because it doesn't release all the H+ vinegar does at the time you dose it. Both have about the same long term effect on pH from bacterial activity which produces some CO2 but bulk vinegar dosing causes precipitous drops; vodka doesn't . Both are about the same otherwise. Neither produces monomers(sugars) asthey have already derived from them.
Bolus dosing probably encourages a burst of bacterial activity which likely results in more anaerobic N reduction than slow dosing as more hypoxic areas form in the mulm due to the temporaey density of the C concentration.
Vinegar requires slow dosing over a long period of time while photosynthesis is occurring to offset the H+ and CO2 addition.

Early on lots of folks thought some mystical bacterial diversity was necessary to avoid a dreaded mythical mono culture monster. This encouraged various mixtures of different carbon sources to ecnourage a varied strain of bacteria and ongoing doses of expensive non viable bacteria supplements versus a relaince on naturally occuring bacteia. There is nothing to suggest a mono culture is possible and nothing to suggest bacterial diversity is helpful ;quite the opposite where sugar and other monomers are involved.


Also.. Tom... would you rate C source dosing good for both Acropora as well as LPS?

Very good for acropora,even more so for pcocillipora, seriatopora an montipora. Ok for lps, gorgonians Excellent for some leathers in terms of coloration. Excellent for sponges ,goniopora and some nps.

Low nitrates are a big benefit,bacteria plankton as food seems useful too. But if you don't have the nitrate issue and properly feed corals that need small micron small micron foods I don't see a need to dose .

It does also help manage the PO4 too.

I only keep one entamacea quadricolor ; it's done well for the 5 years I've been dosing ; grew and split more when NO3 was higher though.

The biggest C dosing fans in my aqauriums are zoantidae ,particulary zoanthus whcih exhibit little or no feeding response to even small micron foods, ime . Pod life is good. I do think the bacteria plankton that breakoff support the food chain some.
Skimming is productive and I like the idea that bacteria grab up some metals too.


I mean... it's unlikely C source dosing would improve anything with my S. gigantea anemone which is already growing out of control

Probably not ; it may harm it but my experience is otherwise with my entmacea. Randy F keeps a a gigantea, IIRC; it did ok but not when he intentionally overdosed.

edit: my main challenge is controlling P and N levels in a heavily fed aquarium full of Acropora (low nutrient) corals.

Organic carbon helps that significantly.

It looks like I'm in the minority here because I've never dosed a carbon source.............

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and you may be right to avoid it ; I'm doing very well with it.



__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
<hr style="color:#FFFFFF; background-color:#FFFFFF" size="1"> Last edited by tmz; Today at 10:55 AM.
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</td> <td class="alt1" style="border: 1px solid #FFFFFF; border-left: 0px; border-top: 0px" align="right"> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=21617201</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
Hi Tom,

Awesome thread. I read the whole thing, then decided I need to stop lurking and actually join RC!

I have a 22 gal tank that's been set up for about a year, and despite running a large skimmer, GFO and GAC my nutrients have always been a bit high. I just started dosing vodka last week (changed to vodka + vinegar after reading this post) and have two questions for you.

1. I've been using Bio Actif salt for about six months, and I really think it's a good product. I do a 20% weekly water change, and the mystery carbon source turbo charges my skimmer for about 36 hours. Then almost nothing until my next change. Wanting more consistent skimmer production, I decided to start dosing regularly. Do you think that regular dosing plus the mystery carbon dose during the weekly water change will cause me problems?

2. Despite nuisance algae growth and daily growth on the glass, my readings for nitrate and phosphate are zero (seachem + hanna). Is this because they're being instantly used by the nuisance algae? Since I don't have a baseline, I'm taking it extremely slow. I ordered a salifert nitrate test, so I'll see in a few days if that makes any difference.

Thanks for this awesome thread!
 
I don't know abut Bio actif salt and the "mystery carbon source". I prefer to know what's going into the tank. If it's adding oraganic carbon it would help to know what type an how much; otherwise, I can't help figure the overall dose with the vodka and vinegar.

Maybe the nuisance algae on the galss is taking up organic phosphate at 0 0 readings are discouraging competitors more dependent on some PO4 and nO3. . Organic carbon could be buiding up too if the bacteria are limited by the absence of P and N. FWIW, I have the best results for coral color and grwoth and nusiance algae control when PO4 is .02 to .03ppm with NO3 around 0.2 to 1ppm.
 
er is a post from another thread realted to a common start up issue. Nitrates don't go down for a long time in some tanks:

I would stay the course and go slowly even though you may have room to go up some. FWIW, I'm settled in at 40vodka equivalents for 650 gallons.

Many don't see nitrate reduction for many months.
I think it took Melev a noted reefer here on RC in the past over 8 mos for nitrates to drop even though PO4 in his tanks dropped soon after dosing started.
In my case ,I used a diy sulfur dentrator to take down the nitrates from the 50 to 80 ppm range in a 650 gallon system in matter of several weeks to near zero. That was over 5 years ago. Since then even with heavy feeding they have remained very low. They hovered around 5ppm for several months though and then just dropped to undetectable.

One study I read notes heterotrophic bacteria (like those encouraged by carbon dosing) take N from ammonia directly to microbial mass. This would cut down on the production of nitrate through the usual autotrophic bacterial route via ammonia oxidation but wouldn't do very much to remove nitrate that's there already .A different pathway via the removal oxygen from nitrate,ie, the usual aerobic activity would .
So, it seems high nitrate might take a long time via the normal anaerobic process to deplete and carbon dosing likely won't make it faster in a direct way if the heterotrophs take N form ammonia directly ; the extra heterotrophic bacterial activity would just cut down the new nitrate supply.
This scenario may explain why folks who start carbon dosing with relatively low nitrate levels ( say less than 5ppm ) can keep them there and after a period of time se them fall further. While , those who use soluble organics to drop existing high nitrate levels often find it takes an inordinately long period of time .
Unfortunately , some push it and wind up with the nasty consequences of overdosing which in some case are quite significant including fish and other animal killing oxygen depletion from blooms, stingy messes throughout the aquarium and a buildup of unused total organiccarbon.

Here is the study fyi:

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/IS...%20Ebeling.pdf


This is from it:

The three nitrogen conversion pathways traditionally used for the removal of ammonia-nitrogen in
marine shrimp aquaculture systems are throug
h the conversion of
ammonia-nitrogen via
photoautotrophic algae directly to algal biomass, autotrophic bacterial to nitrate nitrogen, and
heterotrophic bacterial directly to microbial biomass.
 
2fun kids

The chart is neat. I'll assume the math is correct ,since I'm too lazy to play with it. Just to be clear I'm not recommending the mix or the amounts I use for every tank. Tanks are diferent in many ways as are reef keepers. Some will prefer just vinegar ;some just vodka. Some a little more ;some a lot less. Some pellets or some other mix. Though I personally , wouldn't use polymers or monomers,ie carbohydrates like pellets or sugars. I encourage folks to find the right level for the indiidual aquarium based on PO4(.01 t .04ppm) and NO3 ( 0.2 to 1ppm) as best as they can be determined with hobby grade testing equipment.
 
Hi Tom,
Read through this post and the comments you made in the long LaCl thread.
I've currently been using the filter sock/drip method, usingLaCl.
I have a 420gallon tank, 2 100 gallon sumps, and a skimmer that holds 50 gallons.
I've been dosing 10ml LaCl to 2 liters of water, with a drip rate of 1 drip per second or slower.
Over a 2 week period, my PO4 has gone from.71 to.10, using Hannna meter.
I'd like to start dosing to keep or lower the PO4 more. My nitrates are around 40, using the Salifert kit. I started a sulpher denitrater around a week ago, might have taken it down 10 , or stayed the same.Hard to tell on the Salifert color scale. :)
Would I need to bring the nitrates down as well or would this be a low enough point to start for PO4?
Didn't know if dosing would mess up the sulpher reactor chemistry as well.

TIA,

Todd
 
I think 10ppm NO3 is low enough for a start with roganic carbn dosing .
Personally, I'd let the sulfur dentrator take it lower first.
You might get away with dosing and using the sulfur dentrator at the same time but organic carbon in the low oxygen reactor environment could easily encourage sulfate reducing heterotrophic bacteria . They produce toxic hydrogen sulfide as a by product .
 
Thanks for the quick reply.
I wait and try dosing once the NO3 comes down.
I've been using a cheato fuge,but stopped using GFO, seeing PO4 was so high.It didn't seem to help much at that level.Considering using GFO now that levels are down to .10.
I know the lower PO4 is, the less the LaCl is as effective.I did upsize my reactors, so I'm able to max out at 6 cups.I do still run GAC , 6 cups, changing out every 2 weeks.
Ideally I'd like to wait for NO3 and PO4 to drop to low levels, and implement the dosing.
I've tried spiked limewater in the past, and didn't like the results.
I've read your comments on the bolus method, and they seem to make the most sense to use.
I'd like to avoid sugars and use either vodka or vinegar, or a combo of each.
Would you start with one over the other or a combo?
Thanks again, I think your info. has helped many people understand and utilize methods to reduce PO4 and NO3.
 
I'd like to avoid sugars and use either vodka or vinegar, or a combo of each.
Would you start with one over the other or a combo?
Thanks again, I think your info. has helped many people understand and utilize methods to reduce PO4 and NO3.



You are welcome. Glad the thread is helpful.


I would probably stick to the devil I know. There are good arguments for just vinegar or just vodka or both. They are really almost the same thing except for the oxidation to acetic acid that occurs with vinegar and the initial precipitous pH drops with vinegar. I'll never use sugar again, though. I've used the vodka and vinegar combination for over 5 years with good results ; so I'd probably do it that way again unless I learn a way to improve it.
 
I think for now I'll try vodka only.I'll wait for both levels to fall.
Using guidelines from this article. Using 80 Proof.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php
I'd be using 463 as a NWV 420 + 100 +100 = 620 X .666 = 413 + 50 Skimmer Volume = 463.
For simplcity could we round to 500 ?
So,
.4ml x 5 = 2.0 ml as a starting dose daily on days 1-3.
2.0 X 2 = 4.0 ml days 3-7
Increase dosage .5 ml per week from there on.
4.5 ml week 2
5.0 ml week 3
5.5 ml week 4, etc.
Does this sound like a reasonable plan of action.
I'm worried about levels rising too much until I meet the maintainance dose.
 
Awesome topic TMZ! Thanks. Just got some bio pellets from BRS today but started dosing vodka 5 days ago so may just stick with the GFO and vodka for the time being.
Appreciate all the info.
 
Volcano , That is a very safe schedule . I'd probably go a little faster but theer is no harm in patience.
 
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