Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing
- Thread starter tmz
- Start date
A question/suggestion came up on vinegar dosing on the reef chemistry forum. The suggestion was to set aside concerns about pH drops and dose viinegar at night to out compete cyano while it was sleeping.
This is my reply for general information:
I don't think so. Don't think that cyano "sleeps" either. Obviously photosynthesis stops but other functions continue.
For example:
This paper suggests nitrogen fixation occurs at night with peaks at dawn and dusk in periods absent photosynthetic acitivity :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...672.x/abstract
Here is another suggesting nitrogen fixation occurs by cyano bacteria during periods when photosynthesis is absent:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10....86-6_92#page-1
The nitrogen fixing process in cyano bacteria depends on a unique enzyme nitrogenase ;it is sensitive to oxygen and performs it's function in heterocysts,special areas within the cyanobacteria's structure in an anoxic environment. It seems reasonable it would be easier for this to occur when the cyano was producing less oxygen from photosynthesis as the two noted studies suggest. Thus , the nitrogen fixing species of cyano don't sleep they just perform a different essential process during non photosynthetic hours.
Further adding the organic carbon source at night might just help them since they may compete for the organic carbon particularly when no self generated organic carbon is produced via photosynthesis. Low oxygen levels with high CO2 from vinegar dosing might also hinder the facultative heterotrophic bacteria .
PH concerns can't really be put aside as the initial drops can be significant enough to cause trouble at the usual levels for vinegar dosing . While 80ml of 5% vinegar to a 650 gallon system causes a small downward shift ;if ,I dosed all of the organic carbon I use as vinegar it would be much more severe and dangerous particularly at night . I also dose 32 ml of vodka which would take and additional 320 ml of vinegar if I used vinegar in a bolus dose in lieu of the vodka.
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This is my reply for general information:
I don't think so. Don't think that cyano "sleeps" either. Obviously photosynthesis stops but other functions continue.
For example:
This paper suggests nitrogen fixation occurs at night with peaks at dawn and dusk in periods absent photosynthetic acitivity :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...672.x/abstract
Here is another suggesting nitrogen fixation occurs by cyano bacteria during periods when photosynthesis is absent:
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10....86-6_92#page-1
The nitrogen fixing process in cyano bacteria depends on a unique enzyme nitrogenase ;it is sensitive to oxygen and performs it's function in heterocysts,special areas within the cyanobacteria's structure in an anoxic environment. It seems reasonable it would be easier for this to occur when the cyano was producing less oxygen from photosynthesis as the two noted studies suggest. Thus , the nitrogen fixing species of cyano don't sleep they just perform a different essential process during non photosynthetic hours.
Further adding the organic carbon source at night might just help them since they may compete for the organic carbon particularly when no self generated organic carbon is produced via photosynthesis. Low oxygen levels with high CO2 from vinegar dosing might also hinder the facultative heterotrophic bacteria .
PH concerns can't really be put aside as the initial drops can be significant enough to cause trouble at the usual levels for vinegar dosing . While 80ml of 5% vinegar to a 650 gallon system causes a small downward shift ;if ,I dosed all of the organic carbon I use as vinegar it would be much more severe and dangerous particularly at night . I also dose 32 ml of vodka which would take and additional 320 ml of vinegar if I used vinegar in a bolus dose in lieu of the vodka.
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bebereef
New member
I mostly read (don't write often) on RC but here i would like to thank you so much for putting that together in such a way that even me (mostly french speaking) can understand, read and learn, needless to say that i will follow that thread with a lot of interest, thanks again.
Thankyou, very nice to hear.
trueblackpercula
New member
Can anyone please tell me how much VSV to start dosing on120 gallons of water in CC's per day?
I dose ~20 ml of vinegar with my auto top off with kalk. I haven't really noticed any ill effects. Nitrite and phosphates stay within acceptable levels. Just a few very small patches of cyano. My question is should I switch to dosing just during photosynthetic periods or continue 24 hour dosing?
bif24701
New member
So I stated earlier that I was curing my 100 pounds of BRS Pukani dry rock in my 120 display tank. I started about 4 weeks ago. I was dosing about 400ml daily for two weeks, 10 days ago reduced the dosing to 50ml daily. After one week of 400 ml my water clouded and remained a bit cloudy for a week. Skimmer was going strong, about 24oz of wet skim mate daily. Once
I started 50 ml dosing I wanted to get my water clear however my filter socks clogged in hours so I had to change them out often and skimmer was still going crazy yet not problematic for me. I just changed out the socks as often as I could and cleaned the skimmer neck daily to get as much out of it as possible. Water is now crystal clear, skimmer is normal.
Yesterday day I received my Hanna phosphate checker and just checked again to verify. 0.00 ppm! Though I am running cheato and about two cups GFO I think the vinegar dosing was key to keeping leaves low and eliminating them early on. Time will tell. I am happy with these results considering the anxiety I had about the Pukani and phosphate. I will continue to dose ~50ml daily and keep an eye on the phosphate. I'm now getting some diatoms growing on some rocks and here it's clear some rocks leach more than other I'm assuming because some rocks are growing a lot and some none at all. I don't think people will copy my method for curing Pukian though that would be great I would like to know what you think?
I started 50 ml dosing I wanted to get my water clear however my filter socks clogged in hours so I had to change them out often and skimmer was still going crazy yet not problematic for me. I just changed out the socks as often as I could and cleaned the skimmer neck daily to get as much out of it as possible. Water is now crystal clear, skimmer is normal.
Yesterday day I received my Hanna phosphate checker and just checked again to verify. 0.00 ppm! Though I am running cheato and about two cups GFO I think the vinegar dosing was key to keeping leaves low and eliminating them early on. Time will tell. I am happy with these results considering the anxiety I had about the Pukani and phosphate. I will continue to dose ~50ml daily and keep an eye on the phosphate. I'm now getting some diatoms growing on some rocks and here it's clear some rocks leach more than other I'm assuming because some rocks are growing a lot and some none at all. I don't think people will copy my method for curing Pukian though that would be great I would like to know what you think?
It's probably ok the way you are doing it . The kalk offsets some ofsets the pH drop. What size tank is it?
The is too much going on with new rock an a new cycle for organic carbn dosng to be predictable ,imo.. I prefer to take care of leaching phospahte with lanthanum chloride in a curing bin and to let the nitrogen cycle finish before starting to dose an organic carbon source.
Most settle in at about 0.4 to 0.8ml per gallon of water volume after amping up slowly. 50ml is towardd the higher end of that range. Dosing high amounts like the 400ml will cause excessive organic carbon buildup and bacterial activity which can be harmful. FWIW, I use the equivalent of 400ml of 5% vinegar per day for a water volume of 650 gallons . it's plenty for my tanks which are heavily fed and have a lot of fish .
bif24701
New member
Yes there was a build up I'm sure. That would explain the extended cloudiness. The organic carbon remained until consumed. Note this was done on a new system, no live stock and I am convinced it helped clear the system up sooner than would have otherwise. I could have gotten by with a much smaller dose and 50ml I think your right and is high. I was up to 50 ml on the 120 years ago before the break down by now that I think about it that was because my nitrates reached the 180 range. I was away for a few weeks and my wife over dosed the system with pellet food. Once the nitrates came down I think it was reduced to about 10-15 range with a high bioload and heavy feeding. At this point where I'll start to add live stock 5ml would be a good place to start I think.
Vadafallon
New member
I have decided to start dosing vinegar for my 60 gallon cube. Probably have about 75 gallon total volume with sump. How much should i start at?
If you are dosing vinegar you need to dose it slowly when the lights are on. If vodka ,you can bolus dose it in the am or split the dose am and pm or spread it out if you like. Daily dosing keeps the bacteria going. Every 12 hours might be advantageous but many dose once a day.
Vadafallon
New member
I do not have a doser and would be doing this manually. Would i be better off doing Vinegar or Vodka or some other form of carbon? I will be getting a auto top off, should i do it in that?
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