Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[imanewbies]

Ah I see, thanks tmz & fishypapa for the clarifications!

 

[imanewbies]

I have some questions regarding vodka dosing that I would like to ask.

I'm on my 9th week of dosing now(4.84ml daily) but I have yet to see any decrease in nitrates(50ppm) and phosphates(1ppm). So far the tank looks fine apart from a little cyano on the rocks. I'm leaving town for around one month to Australia in January 2014 and I would be getting my parents to help me dose vodka during that period. They have no experience in maintaining a marine aquarium.

If by next week(Week 10) the nitrates and phosphates do not drop, should I get them to continue dosing at 5.34ml until I come back rather than increasing it by 0.5ml weekly until nitrates and phosphates drop? I'm concerned that they do not use the test kits properly and inadvertently overdose on the vodka during my absence.

 

[Mrporter]

Bacteria Counts

Bacteria Counts

Ok....So I'm in the process of getting ready to setup the NPX bio-pellets. After reading everything I possibly could on the subject I'm just curious if there's a way to limit the amount of bacteria count. I've read the stories related to tanks going to zero phosphates and nitrates and the livestock having a hard time and corals dying off. If this is at the "recommended" usage of the bio pellets, then if you cut in 1/2 that amount would you in essence get 1/2 the amount of bacteria? Basically for my tank I have a large load of fish and my nitrates is in the 40's. Same story as everyone wanting to reduce the nitrates, and the only alternative I could see that would reduce without doing as many water changes is to drop my fish count down, which of course I don't want to do lol. So I purchased a phosban reactor with the Npx pellets. My setup is a 150 gallon and the phosban reactor will not hold the "recommended" amount of pellets needed, so my thought was to have it work in unison to reduce the nitrate, not eliminate to zero, just control it. At this point I'm doing a 16% water change on a weekly basis and the nitrates are still kicking my tail.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Ok....So I'm in the process of getting ready to setup the NPX bio-pellets. After reading everything I possibly could on the subject I'm just curious if there's a way to limit the amount of bacteria count. I've read the stories related to tanks going to zero phosphates and nitrates and the livestock having a hard time and corals dying off. If this is at the "recommended" usage of the bio pellets, then if you cut in 1/2 that amount would you in essence get 1/2 the amount of bacteria? Basically for my tank I have a large load of fish and my nitrates is in the 40's. Same story as everyone wanting to reduce the nitrates, and the only alternative I could see that would reduce without doing as many water changes is to drop my fish count down, which of course I don't want to do lol. So I purchased a phosban reactor with the Npx pellets. My setup is a 150 gallon and the phosban reactor will not hold the "recommended" amount of pellets needed, so my thought was to have it work in unison to reduce the nitrate, not eliminate to zero, just control it. At this point I'm doing a 16% water change on a weekly basis and the nitrates are still kicking my tail.

Have you thought about a denitrator?

 

[007Bond]

Wow,...hard to believe, shutting down a 5+ year old "VERY GOOD" thread! and for what?... 5:30 am,...take a shower, have a cup of coffee, eat a donut, wake up, get the cobwebs out! Talk about censorship. I have seen other threads were there were numerous unheeded warnings before being closed, and maybe the debate was ongoing,... I was taking notes from the various thoughts and inputs to form my own conclusion. Did not see that coming. :mad2:---Rick

 

[tmz]

<hr style="color:#FFFFFF; background-color:#FFFFFF" size="1"> Ok....So I'm in the process of getting ready to setup the NPX bio-pellets. After reading everything I possibly could on the subject I'm just curious if there's a way to limit the amount of bacteria count.

Not to my knowlefge ;that's one reason I pefer dosing solble organics ;ie, I can precisely control the amount of organic carbon dosed and by extension the bacteria

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hi Tom,

While I was reading your fantastic thread, I noticed that in post #19, the second paper you referred to is not quite right. I believe it should refer to this paper instead. Apologies if I am wrong...

Regards

 

[tmz]

Thanks, Glad you enjoyed it. Nice catch, It's to late to edit that post though but yes I meant to link part 1 of the Penn state study.

 

[rroberts002]

I started dosing LaCL today 5ml into 1000ml water dripped at 1.5ml a minute. The low range PO4 meter is stuck in Buffalo due to "weather travel emergency". I hope it gets out to Rochester by Friday. I've had the tank back up and running for about a year or so since breaking it down. I've had a LOT of hair algae for lots of reasons. (lack of nutrient export / water changes / etc... ) I've been doing a 9% water change daily for about 2 weeks now and scrubbed the rocks (It's a FOWLR for now) and scrapped all sides of the glass.

I've read the now deceased LaCL thread and this thread. Am I correct in the following thoughts?
to get the initial high PO4 and NA3 down I should use the LaCL and water changes. Once I am down to a relative low level I should stop the LaCL and should start the Vodka dosing. If PO4 starts to rise, restart low dose LaCL.

Does that about cover it? Or is that too simplified?
Thanks!

 

[tmz]

Hi,

Sorry about the thread, I kept tryng to keep things moving forward without absorbing shots or being defensive or off topic; my tongue was bleeding from biting it along the way; but it didn't play out the way I hoped in the end The thread though closed is still there.It has tons of information in it on lanthanum chloride and wil serve as a very good reference.
Are those your daughters in the picture. Really cute. you are blessed .I rasied two and a son ;have two grandsons now. The girls were tough from 12 to 20.

More or less covers it
. It's better to start organic carbon dosing when PO4 and NO3 levels are at reasonable levels.and use it for mainteinence and extra bacteria for the food web.
I no longer use LaCl and haven't for a long time , except for curing rock outside the tank that's leaching PO4. You might give thar a thought if there is a histor y of high PO4 exposure in our tank water. It's just a little too dangerous and mistakes are too easy to make for my taste for use on my main aquarium system.. Dosing it slowly and filtering it well is important. Watching PO4 levels to be sure they don't drop too fast is also important especially for clams and some sensitive corals.

Playing forward. If the PO4 climbs back up after organic carbon dosing is underway at an established maintenance dose or it's just not as low as you want it to be,a little gfo can handle that. Lanthanum isn't as effective as gfo at low levels; some say it looses effectiveness around .10 ppm or so. With less PO4 around I think more lanthanum just binds to carbonate. So watch your alkalinity when using it. Be sure to try to keep PO4 in the .02 to .05ppm range;not zero and have a bit of nitrate around too ,say 0.2ppm to 1pmm.

Good luck

 

[rroberts002]

Perfect, Thanks Tom.
Yep, those are my girls. They are great kids, I am truly blessed.
Right now there is a very low bioload in the tank (relative to our glass cages) - about 7 little fish in the 210gal. There is no coral yet, I've been slowly bringing everything back online. Hopefully I'll get some numbers on PO4 on Friday. Tank has been running an ATS for the last 6 or so months. I get probably 2-3 cups of growths every month. That tells me there has to be fairly significant PO4 in the system. I don't feed that much, which I actually want to change. I'm currently am running an ASM G3 skimmer but want to change that to a Super Reef Octopus 6000 External within the next two months. I was looking at the denitrification chamber if the NO3 is running high as well. But to purchase one would could be about $500. I'll switch off LaCL once I can get the levels down.

Thanks for the info Tom, folks like you and Gary really make a difference to a lot of people.

 

[tmz]

You are welcome. Thanks for the nice words. I use two asm 4xxs for the 650 gallon system, fwie ,and have had good performance fro mthem for about 7 or 8 years. I don't know about the denitrification chamber on the octopus; I'll look it up.

Good luck.

 

[rroberts002]

Got the Hanna Low Range Phosphate meter today. It says it is .09 which is a lot better than I expected. Might be the ATS taking it up... FOr grins I tested the water change water and it was .10.

I used the Salifert NO3 test kit and it had not even a hint of pink, even when viewed from the side. So I take it that it is truly 0.0 which means to me I can feed more than I have been.

I did some other tests and here is what it looks like the system is
SG = 35ppm
PO4 = 0.09
NO3 = 0.0
Temp = 77.10 (NIST Mercury good to .05)
Ca = 460 (Salifert - FOWLR - 200# LR at the moment and was running a GEO Kalkwasser reactor, so looks like I can stop doing that till I get SPS)
KH = 6.7dKH (Salifert - so I could use a slight increase in Alk)
MG = 1500 (Salifert - I was adding MG to water change water so I guess I can stop that)
PH = 8.39 (Always runs high on the tank due to GEO Kalkwasser)

First real time I have tested the water since the initial cycle. Looks much better than I thought.
I have 0 snails or Herb. fish so that coupled with little maintenance is probably the real cause of all the algae. When I scraped the glass I haven't had to wipe it with the magnets for almost 5 days and there is no algae on the glass yet.

I'm going to start the Vodka dose program and discontinue the LaCL. I'll check PO4 in 3 days to see if it went back up since I ran the LaCL yesterday without having a way to test its levels first (I know, bad on me).

All goes good I'll get some more fish and CUC and away we go...!

 

[DRThompson]

has anyone used a methanol denitrator or chamber to remove nitrates? I've been using the Natureef dentrator for about 2 years but am tired of spending money on the green nitragone and yellow phosphagone. I know it has methanol but I'm not sure of the concentration. Has anyone used these products?

I've been thinking of keeping the chamber but using a different carbon dose, either dosing with my own methanol concentration or Calcium acetate. Any thoughts?

thanks

 

[tmz]

Wow,...hard to believe, shutting down a 5+ year old "VERY GOOD" thread! and for what?... 5:30 am,...take a shower, have a cup of coffee, eat a donut, wake up, get the cobwebs out! Talk about censorship. I have seen other threads were there were numerous unheeded warnings before being closed, and maybe the debate was ongoing,... I was taking notes from the various thoughts and inputs to form my own conclusion. Did not see that coming. :mad2:---Rick

I don't have any idea why you posted this here.

 

[007Bond]

Your right Tom,....should have just pm'ed you.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hi Tom,

I have a few questions.

I have been dosing white distilled vinegar (5%) to my 66 (US) gallon (250-lt) tank for the past five weeks. As per Randy's article in the Reefkeeping magazine, I started with a 2ml dose and gradually increased the dosage amount to 12 ml. At this point I noticed STN at the bases of three of my acropora corals. I then reduced the dosing amount down to 8 ml and started to fluidise Seachem matrix carbon. STN has stopped.

After reducing the dosage, as expected the amount of skimmate has also dropped and chaeto started to grow more vigorously. However, what I also noticed is that my acroporas started to grow a lot faster than they ever did.

I am hypothesising that facultative heterotrophic bacteria are used as food for my corals before my skimmer has the chance to remove them. Does this make sense? Do you or any other reefers have made similar observations?

By the way, here are my latest water parameters:

NO3 = 0.1 ppm (Salifert)
PO4 = 0.015 mg/l (phosphorus- Rowa Merck)

KH = 7.85 dKH
Ca = 440 ppm
Mg = 1325 ppm

Salinity = 34.5 ppt
Temp = 27-28 C

I keep eleven fishes and feed them three times a day heavily with frozen food. I keep chaeto in my sump and remove 1000 ml every ten days to export nutrients. I consulted Big E, who advised me not use vinegar based on my water parameters. I am using vinegar just to to mop up any excess nutrients and reduce the frequency of cleaning of the front glass.

I have no idea if there is a positive correlation between growth rates and the amount of vinegar I am dosing at present. Should I stop dosing?

Thanks in anticipation

 

[tmz]

Hi,

I've been of the computer for a while so this response is late.

Stn; never saw base stn ,I could attribute to vodka or vinegar dosing;the are just so many possible explanations including a rapid reduction in PO4. I run rox 8 gac and skim well .With very low ie, 0 NO3 and PO4 orgaic carbon might build up an make trouble. 8ml sunds like a nice maintenance dose to maintain the feeding and PO$ and NO3 levels.

The caheto is probably getting more nutrients with less bacteia to compete for them. When PO4 drops below 0.03ppm chaeto has a hard time , ime.

Acro growth; I'm a little confused . Did yor observe increased growth while dosing or after you cut it back? I do think some bacteria feed the food web from the bottom up and some may be eaten by corals directly. Zoanthus , in particular do better with teh organics than without them. Sponges too. Maybe sps or maybe they pick up other types of plankton fed by the bacteria,Thye also need PO4 and dissove nitrogen, so dosing organic carbon an be easily overdone.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hi,

I've been of the computer for a while so this response is late.

Stn; never saw base stn ,I could attribute to vodka or vinegar dosing;the are just so many possible explanations including a rapid reduction in PO4. I run rox 8 gac and skim well .With very low ie, 0 NO3 and PO4 orgaic carbon might build up an make trouble. 8ml sunds like a nice maintenance dose to maintain the feeding and PO$ and NO3 levels.

The caheto is probably getting more nutrients with less bacteia to compete for them. When PO4 drops below 0.03ppm chaeto has a hard time , ime.

Acro growth; I'm a little confused . Did yor observe increased growth while dosing or after you cut it back? I do think some bacteria feed the food web from the bottom up and some may be eaten by corals directly. Zoanthus , in particular do better with teh organics than without them. Sponges too. Maybe sps or maybe they pick up other types of plankton fed by the bacteria,Thye also need PO4 and dissove nitrogen, so dosing organic carbon an be easily overdone.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your response. STN has stopped. It is possible that STN has nothing to do with vinegar dosing. I will probably never know.

I have just carried out NO3 (Salifert) and PO4 (Rowa Merck) testing. NO3 is definitely less than 0.2 ppm (I am guessing it is 0.1 ppm). PO4 is between 0.008 and 0.015 mg/l in P (it is a lot closer to 0.015 though). I do not use any GFO at present. However, I fluidise 75 ml of Seachem carbon and replace it every ten days. My chaeto continues to grow vigorously. I remove 1000ml every ten days. Vinegar dosing has not affected its growth though it was slower when the dosing was at 12 ml per day.

As per coral growth, I think I am mistaken in my previous observations. I carried out KH and Ca testing (both Salifert calibrated against FM Multi-referenz solution) last night. Alkalinity (7.85 dKH) and calcium (440 ppm) readings did not change since my last tests ten days ago. If there had been any increase in growth, the readings would have surely dropped.

Moreover, as you said, I am beginning to worry about organic carbon build up. I do not want to dose sodium nitrate in order to continue with vinegar dosing. I see little point in that. Do you agree? Are there any external signs of organic carbon build up ? if I decide to stop dosing, then should I stop immediately or do it gradually?

Thanks in anticipation

 

[tmz]

I wouldn't dose sodium nitrate with your levels of PO4 and NO3. Seems like you have enough nitrogen . The only signs I look for when carbon dosing are increases in baterial mass as snotty mats . I don't thinf you'll see that with good skimming an 8ml of vinegar for 62 gallons.

If you choose to stop ,I'd back off gradually . I haven't stopped in over 5 years.